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Polk Needled, Noodled In Evolution Flap
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Published: December 22, 2007
LAKELAND - Public floggings hurt, even when administered by satirical sacred noodles.
Ask the Polk County School Board. The panel made news last month when five of its seven members declared a personal belief in the concept of intelligent design, the religiously based explanation of the development of life believed in by many Christians.
Four of those five sympathetic board members said they would like to see intelligent design taught in Polk schools as an alternative to Darwinian evolution, at a time when new state standards mentioning evolution by name for the first time are under consideration.
Just like that, it appeared the Darwin wars had found their newest battlefield.
Yet a few weeks later, the controversy is dying with a whimper. There's no board support for a challenge to the proposed standards. Some of the five school board members blame the local newspaper for trying to start a fight.
"It's not our agenda," said Tim Harris, one of the board members. "My personal opinion and how I vote don't always jibe."
What happened? You can start with the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
The satirical religious Web site asserts that an omnipotent, airborne clump of spaghetti intelligently designed all life with the deft touch of its "noodly appendage." Adherents call themselves Pastafarians. They deluged Polk school board members with e-mail demanding equal time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism's version of intelligent design.
"They've made us the laughingstock of the world," said Margaret Lofton, a school board member who supports intelligent design. She dismissed the e-mail as ridiculous and insulting.
That's the point. The Pastafarians are part of an informal online network that can rain scrutiny and ridicule on school districts flirting with intelligent design. In Polk County, where leaders are working hard to start a polytechnic university campus and talk about attracting high-tech jobs, that's unwelcome attention.
"I imagine the school board was surprised by the speed and volume of the response," said Bobby Henderson, founder and operator of the Spaghetti Monster Web site. "They saw it as a local issue, but it didn't take long for word to spread on the Internet.
"I think all of us have a vested interest in not seeing science standards lowered - or in this case having the definition of science changed to allow supernatural theories."
Topic Of Interest
It started innocently enough.
A reporter for The Ledger in Lakeland called school board member Kay Harris Fields to ask her opinion of the pending state standards.
There's nothing pernicious about that, said The Ledger's longtime Executive Editor Skip Perez.
"We do what newspapers are supposed to do, report on what our public officials are thinking about topics of interest," Perez said.
The story quoted Fields as opposing the evolution portion of the new standards and looking for state Superintendent Gail McKinzie to say whether there was anything to be done about them locally.
"There needs to be intelligent design as well," Fields said in the story. "You need to show both sides."
Fields said later, via e-mail, she didn't realize there would be a story "on the front page of the Ledger indicating that I opposed evolution."
The newspaper followed up with a second story polling the entire board.
"And the rest is history," Fields said.
Enter the Pastafarians. And Wired Magazine. And national science blog Pharyngula. And local bloggers.
This network is now armed with more than just biting humor and active readership. It has a 2005 federal court ruling from Dover, Pa., barring the teaching of intelligent design in public schools there.
Intelligent design "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents," wrote Judge John E. Jones III in his opinion.
Wesley R. Elsberry, a Michigan State scientist who was raised and educated in Lakeland, wrote an open online letter to the school district, making reference to the Dover case. Elsberry, who studies the evolution of intelligence in digital organisms akin to computer viruses, helped prepare a Dover expert witness.
In his Polk letter, Elsberry wrote: "You've been conned. 'Intelligent design' is a legal sham, a con game, one whose sole purpose is to insert a narrow sectarian doctrine into public school classrooms."
Echoing Fields' original statement about teaching "both sides," Elsberry says intelligent design advocates want to set up a "conflict model" for judging scientific progress. Under that model, science and religion often will come into conflict, and to be religious, one must come down on the side of religion.
That's a false conflict, argues Elsberry, who says he believes in God and sees no reason why observed science and religion can't co-exist. Based on the scientific observation, Elsberry believes God employs evolution and natural selection as the mechanism of developing life.
Polk County is increasingly at odds with itself as it urbanizes and struggles to decide to which region of Florida it belongs.
One of the few generally unifying ideas, though, is the pursuit of a new applied science-focused campus of the University of South Florida, to be located in northeast Lakeland along Interstate 4. It would be the state's first four-year public polytechnic college. Polk County and Lakeland city governments each have recently pledged $5 million to help kick-start the campus, which remains in bureaucratic and fiscal limbo.
Backers see it as a potential economic engine and keystone of a high-tech I-4 corridor. They envision creating business incubators and luring technology companies.
So what was the reaction to news of intelligent design talk?
"I was surprised," said Marshall Goodman, a USF vice president and CEO of the existing and future Lakeland campuses.
Goodman, who has worked to promote the new campus among Polk's civic, business and political leaders, stopped short of criticizing local school board members. Intelligent design, however, merited no such tact.
"It's not science," Goodman said. "You can't even call it pseudo-science."
Josh Hallett is a Winter Haven-based online social networking expert working as director of new media strategies for VOCE communications in Palo Alto, Calif. The intelligent design dustup and possible implications for Polk were hot topics on his local blog, Empirical Polk.
In a post headlined "Say Goodbye To The Tech Sector," Hallett asked rhetorically: "What site selection consultant is going to recommend Polk County over, say, Orange or Hillsborough counties when the external impression of the school board is not that great?"
It's not just traditionally rural Polk facing such questions.
The Pastafarian nation already has turned its attention to urbane Pinellas County, where a similar majority of school board members came out in support of intelligent design this week.
What's It Worth?
Whether Polk County suffers from all the talk is hard to say.
Florida is one of only a small handful of states with science standards that don't prescribe the teaching of evolution by name. The new standards would change that. State-sanctioned textbooks, however, already teach and discuss Darwinian evolution, by name and in some detail.
"Many characteristics of a species are inherited when they pass from parent to offspring," reads one seventh-grade Life Sciences text. "Change in these inherited characteristics over time is evolution."
The pro-intelligent design board members say they now recognize that the new standards are a state issue and there's nothing they can do about them, even if they'd like to.
Lofton, a former geometry teacher with a master's degree in mathematics and one of the pro-intelligent design board members, said she has no interest in engaging with the Pastafarians or anyone else seeking to discredit intelligent design.
She describes herself as secure in her beliefs. "I'm a Christian. I personally believe that the Bible is inerrant truth and the word of God."
With that in mind, is it worth quitting over the forced teaching of Darwinian evolution as the only scientifically accepted explanation of the development of life?
Lofton says no. There's been no talk by any other board member of taking such a stand. In fact, there seems to be great eagerness simply to return to the day-to-day work of running a school district with 90,000 students.
"My job is about a whole lot more than a handful of standards in science," Lofton said. "We face issues that make that issue pale in comparison."
Reporter Billy Townsend can be reached at wtownsend@tampatrib.com or (863) 284-1409.
Reader Comments
Posted by ( Ohnoyoudidnt ) on December 22, 2007 at 12:43 a.m.
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Posted by ( BobCu ) on December 22, 2007 at 3:13 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
"They've made us the laughingstock of the world," said Margaret Lofton, a school board member who supports intelligent design. She dismissed the e-mail as ridiculous and insulting.
Intelligent design is ridiculous and I'm glad Margaret Lofton was insulted. She is incompetent and she should resign.
It was Margaret Lofton who made herself and her county the laughing-stock of the the world.
When creationists try to destroy science education they deserve to be ridiculed. This story proves ridicule worked, and an expensive trial, which this school board would have lost, was avoided. If these creationists don't have the decency to resign, they should be voted out of office as soon as possible. It's disgraceful there are school board members who have these childish religious beliefs and a total ignorance of science.
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Posted by ( jameswpope ) on December 22, 2007 at 7:35 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Faith is the promise of things hoped for, evidence for things not seen.
That describes the entire philosophy of the religion of evolution. There is just as much "evidence" for a Creator as their is for the "Big Bang". It amazes me at time how evolutionist decry the ingnorance of creationists, while bowing at the altar of the humanist trinity of Darwin, Sagan and Marx.
What is wrong with letting the competing theories be taught and stand (or fall)on their own merits. I mean, are we trying to educate or indoctrinate our population?
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Posted by ( maxfl1 ) on December 22, 2007 at 7:36 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Ah, but here's the rub everyone ignores. Darwin's theory is just that. A theory. Hasn't been proven. Remember they're still searching for that darn 'missing link.' Yes, they have proven evolutionary changes 'within' species, but Darwin's theory is based on the 'origin' of species. And, folks, that has never been proven. So, Darwin believers have nothing over creationists.
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Posted by ( dogworld ) on December 22, 2007 at 8:25 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Ms Lofton and her cohorts should practice intelligent RESIGN! and get their nonsensical pseudo-educational programs out of schools. Intelligent design is not even a theory, it's a sentence invented by Christians to insinuate their beliefs into schools and interfere with real education. The fact these five members have invaded the school board shows how insidious they are and the contempt they have for knowledge. They should have criminal charges brought against them for their actions.
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Posted by ( hfelsh ) on December 22, 2007 at 8:32 a.m.
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Posted by ( Sainttom ) on December 22, 2007 at 8:59 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
A true intelligent design would not include religion....T. W. 2003
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Posted by ( maxfl1 ) on December 22, 2007 at 9:20 a.m.
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Posted by ( JulieAnn ) on December 22, 2007 at 9:52 a.m.
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Posted by ( Jen1897 ) on December 22, 2007 at 10:17 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
JulieAnn
Thats a great idea.
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Posted by ( Tampa610 ) on December 22, 2007 at 10:28 a.m.
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Posted by ( JulieAnn ) on December 22, 2007 at 10:37 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Thanks Jen :)
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Posted by ( okie ) on December 22, 2007 at 10:37 a.m.
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Posted by ( JimAtTheRefuge ) on December 22, 2007 at 10:41 a.m.
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Posted by ( JulieAnn ) on December 22, 2007 at 10:42 a.m.
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Posted by ( signit4bes ) on December 22, 2007 at 10:47 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Touched by his noodly appendage!!! http://www.venganza.org/ (Flying Spaghetti Monster site) has full coverage of this Polk story (and Pinellas, and KC School Board, and....) PASTAFARIANS UNITE! Have a merry christmas, happy holiday, kwanza, or whatever your PERSONAL CHOICE may be!
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Posted by ( tampaguy69 ) on December 22, 2007 at 10:54 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
If Florida ever wants to drag itself into the 20th much less the 21st century we need to rid ourselves of this religious crap in the school system. That is what churches are for. Administrators and school board members are free to have their personal belief but that's what they should be, personal, and not inflicted on the education process.
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Posted by ( Ole_Salt ) on December 22, 2007 at 10:55 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Just a quick post. Anyone that has a well rounded education is far more likely to succeed in any endeavour they choose. A balanced approach to this matter is not hindering but helping students understand the theorectical arguments of two opposing views. Our children are more than capable of having a deeper understand of the choice they make when the have intelligently have hear from both viewpoints. I believe that in any debate the more knowledge you have of the oppossing side the better you will fair in your argument for your side. Nothing religious here just a good education on two separate but connected theories.
In fact this holds true even for adults as well as children but many of you who post have already drawn your conclusion and most have done so with out a true understanding of either. therefore the ole cliche "you can't push a rope" or "teach a Rock" holds true with many of you posters and your opinion will not change.
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Posted by ( tampaguy69 ) on December 22, 2007 at 10:58 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Sainttom: If you believe in intelligent design YOU are the one who has drunk the kool aid!
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Posted by ( zarkmud ) on December 22, 2007 at 11:04 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
"...we need to rid ourselves of this religious crap in the school system. That is what churches are for." I agree, churchs are very well suited for religious crap. In fact, I cannot think of a better place for religious crap than a church. Are their any good books on religious crap? Oh, THAT one.
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Posted by ( cavedog ) on December 22, 2007 at 11:21 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Yeah, the first science fiction novel.
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Posted by ( schmidtcj ) on December 22, 2007 at 11:58 a.m.
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Posted by ( midnight ) on December 22, 2007 at 12:01 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Teach don't preach.
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Posted by ( maxfl1 ) on December 22, 2007 at 12:06 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Hi SchmidtC...good stuff, but, alas, there are proven changes within species, but there still remains no proof of "origin" of species. If there was, we wouldn't be having all these discussions, would we. So, tell, me again, what museum has the "missing link" to our origin? I would think that would be front page news and we could all put this to rest.
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Posted by ( Zeratul ) on December 22, 2007 at 12:15 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Naah, not a proper science fiction novel, you know.. I still can't find the STEP-BY-STEP mechanism for the Immaculate Copulation. Perhaps the Intelligent Design proponents can help?
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Posted by ( schmidtcj ) on December 22, 2007 at 12:20 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Maxfil1
Again see: http://scienceblogs.com/loom/2007/12/19/whales_from_so_humble_a_beginn.php
This is an excellent example of a "missing link" that is no longer missing. Ultimately I am sure that fossil will end up in a museum. What many lay people fail to understand is that it is the cumulative changes within a species over time that ultimately results in a new species. That is the type of 'origin' that evolution predicts and evidence supports. It is unclear to me what else is meant by the "origin" of species.
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Posted by ( midnight ) on December 22, 2007 at 12:41 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Max- take a nap.
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Posted by ( RobKay ) on December 22, 2007 at 1:18 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Some of the things people come up with to argue about never cease to amaze me. There is a difference between the purpose of school and the purpose of religeon or churches. One organization is supposed to teach people to think, reason, experiment, and question. One organization is supposed to teach people to accept things based on faith that they do not have to understand to believe. Each organization has its own purpose and they do not share any common ground. Quit wasting time trying to make one fit the other - they never will and there is no reason they should. It is the twenty first century and people want to keep going back in time and arguing the same arguments over and over. Give it a rest. Teach science in school and faith in church and quit trying to raise controversy where there is none. Believe what you want but don't waste your time trying to make everyone else believe what you do. God gave us freedom of choice to think what we want. Quit trying to take that choice away.
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Posted by ( schmidtcj ) on December 22, 2007 at 1:42 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
RobKay
The evolution of the human brain gave us freedom of choice. Some chose to reject reality in favor of mythical stories made up over 2000 years ago by schizophrenics and charlatans. Scientists will stop opposing the introduction of myths as science when the ignorant stop claiming those myths are science.
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Posted by ( JimAtTheRefuge ) on December 22, 2007 at 1:56 p.m.
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Posted by ( RobKay ) on December 22, 2007 at 2:10 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
schmidtcj
Thats kind of harsh. Those stories were made up a lot longer ago than that by simple people who were trying to understand their own existance. They weren't schizophrenics or charlatans. They were probably the very first scientists trying to come up with explainations of why things were the way they were. The things scientists have "figured out" so far may seem just as rediculous to the people who will be around several thousand years from now. And yes there will probably be some people then who will be too ignorant to realize that we may have been wrong about some things in our time too.
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Posted by ( brymanfl ) on December 22, 2007 at 2:11 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
I feel sorry for all of you.
If evolution is going to be taught in our schools so should creation or (Intelligent Design as they like to call it). Neither one has been proved or disproved so teach both and let the children make their minds up for themselves. Dont try to force your beliefs on them.
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Posted by ( JimAtTheRefuge ) on December 22, 2007 at 2:18 p.m.
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Posted by ( Calladus ) on December 22, 2007 at 2:21 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
brymanfl , I completely agree. Let's teach the controversy!
And just in case you didn't bother to read the article, that is exactly what the Pastafarians want.
If Polk County wants to teach creationism, they need to teach all the different forms of creationism. Don't just "force" the belief of one form of creationism, present them all and let the children make up their own minds.
We need to teach Pastafarianism (after all, you can't 'prove' that intelligent spaghetti didn't create the universe, can you?)
While we're at it, lets throw in creationism from the Japanese, the Inuit, and from Native Americans too.
Teach the controversy!
I'm so glad you understand brymanfl!
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Posted by ( Peri_P_Laneta ) on December 22, 2007 at 2:22 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
OK . . . I think an appropriate compromise for this conflict would be this agreement: You promise not to proselytize in my school, and I promise not to think in your church. Agreed?
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Posted by ( hiskeys ) on December 22, 2007 at 3:08 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
The article mentions that intelligent design is a "religiously based explanation", which actually is not true.
The intelligent design framework is based on the cause-and-effect structure that we observe everywhere in the world around us.
When we see specified complexity, from a sand castle to a space shuttle, we rightly understand that it was purposefully made. And when we come across a beaver dam or a BMW, we know instinctively that it was intentionally produced.
It is this same ability to recognize and categorize objects which allows a paleontologist to pick up and analyze only the arrowheads or pottery shards and not the rocks. It's the same process which the forensic scientist uses to distinguish between accidental death and homicide or suicide. And it's the same background against which the SETI observer is hoping to recognize something of "significance."
To deny at the outset that biological (or astronomical) systems can display these same type of arrangements, is to adhere to a type of philosophical materialism, regardless of what patterns and indicators we subsequently observe.
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Posted by ( cavedog ) on December 22, 2007 at 3:08 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
"You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"
-N. Peart
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Posted by ( genepoolx ) on December 22, 2007 at 3:16 p.m.
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Posted by ( cavedog ) on December 22, 2007 at 3:21 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
"
When we see specified complexity, from a sand castle to a space shuttle, we rightly understand that it was purposefully made. And when we come across a beaver dam or a BMW, we know instinctively that it was intentionally produced.
"
I counter with the Laws of Phyics to your one dimensional argument. A planatary system is complex due to Orbital Mechanics and the Law of Gravity.
When you drop a plate of spagetti on the floor, what causes the resulting tangled mess that resembles our roads?
Intelligent Design is the sign of a lazy mind, an insecure mind, and a mind that can not come to grips with the truth of reality, i.e., this is it, bozo, and a Sunday spent in church is wasted (unless your looking for a Spears chick to knock up).
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Posted by ( tampares ) on December 22, 2007 at 3:49 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
It amazes me that so many people don't know what "science" is.
Science: A branch of knowledge based on objectivity and involving observation and experimentation.
Now tell me, what experiments and observations support intelligent design?
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Posted by ( Julie777 ) on December 22, 2007 at 4:56 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
What are you people so afraid of? Have you ever asked yourself? Nothing offends Satan like the name of God or Jesus. How many will call on Him in the next hurricane or terrorist attack? Merry Christmas and I wish blessings and true love for you all.
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Posted by ( gvtomike ) on December 22, 2007 at 5:05 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
What would be parimont would be to teach our children the truth without throwing in there own political or religious agenda.Its all about control.Ignorance is very easy to control.Try to control an open mind armed with the truth!!It all starts with education and I, for one of many,want all children taught the truth and be able to make there own decisions based on that truth.
But there are two old saying,"Sometimes the truth hurts."and "It hurts to grow."
Think about both of them and you will see the real root of this problem concerning Darwins theory.Nobody is ready to accept the fact someone or several people made a mistake.
Over the past 20 years more than one group of scholars has proven Darwins theory to be correct.But it took more than pure science to prove it folks.Its about correcting history all the way back before the beginning of Christ.Think about how many times the bible has been revised in that time frame and it will start to make since.Your dealing with the human factor involved in all these revisions and Im sure each person involved threw in his or her own change as they saw it.History is wrong,as is the bible,if you view it in a historical since.
The bottom line is no one is willing to say that what they were taught was not totally correct and what we are teaching our children could be just as incorrect.
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Posted by ( schmidtcj ) on December 22, 2007 at 5:18 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Julie777
Afraid? What is frightening is the silliness of intelligent design masquerading as science. This religious nonsense is a dead end, leading nowhere, but beguiling to the ignorant.
I am curious though, when did you meet Satan and when you said boo in the form of God or Jesus, did the beast turn and run away?
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Posted by ( Mynameisgenesis ) on December 22, 2007 at 5:27 p.m.
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Posted by ( tampares ) on December 22, 2007 at 6:10 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Re: "What are you people so afraid of?"
It seems to me that many people are afraid that the United States is not enough like Iran. These same people seem to also be afraid that the US is not falling behind fast enough. They apparently want our children to be ignorant in the realm of science and lack the ability to distinguish between science and faith.
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Posted by ( BobCu ) on December 22, 2007 at 7:08 p.m.
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Posted by ( sepulchre ) on December 22, 2007 at 7:18 p.m.
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Posted by ( JimAtTheRefuge ) on December 22, 2007 at 7:24 p.m.
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Posted by ( fizzmickpachee ) on December 22, 2007 at 8:39 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Darwin's discovery of evolution completely rules out the possibility that man came from some dirt that a God used to make an image of Himself out of, and that woman came from a rib of this dirt-man.
Compare the amount of interlocking data from every applicable scientific field including geology, physics, and even molecular biology, all having observational experiments done, that test and prove the hypotheses of evolution occurring, with the DISCREDITED FAIRY TALE - A BIG INVISIBLE MONSTER THAT NOBODY HAS EVER SEEN OR HEARD DID IT. Adapted from St. John of F.S.M.
Reverently,
Fizzmick PaChee
Flying Spaghetti Monster Church - Promoting Common Sense Ideas
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Posted by ( mcgreen ) on December 22, 2007 at 8:41 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Since when did science and religion become opposing views? This is ridiculous, people trying to insist that religion is science need to cease and desist. There are huge hordes of people who believe in evolution that are religious.
There evolution believers who are religious and dumbfounded at the audacity of those who claim to be religious and anti-evolution - - who are you to insist you know the methods of God? God is what you delineate and nothing else?
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Posted by ( fizzmickpachee ) on December 22, 2007 at 9:51 p.m.
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Posted by ( Jen1897 ) on December 22, 2007 at 10:22 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
fizzmickpachee
Well said. But you must know that you are wasting your time with these people. Once they decide to believe in God/Jesus, they become so frightened by what will happen to them if they don't repent and ask for forgivness, that they have completly closed there mind to any alternative view.
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Posted by ( fizzmickpachee ) on December 23, 2007 at 12:55 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Jen1897,
When consistent accurate information is repeatedly delivered, it will overwhelm the inaccuracies in all but the most stubbornly ignorant. Fear of the dark can be overcome with the illumination of truth. If people want to cling to the belief of an afterlife, a better way to look at it is that those who embraced honesty will be rewarded with Heaven and those who promoted superstitious lies that go against all logic and evidence will be punished with Hell.
Also, sorry to have misspelled “certain” in my previous post.
Sincerely,
Fizzmick PaChee
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Posted by ( tparich ) on December 23, 2007 at 11:48 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Religious beliefs must be taught by the religious organizations, not public schools. Once we start teaching Christian beliefs in public schools, wouldn't we be obligated to teach the beliefs of ALL religions?
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Posted by ( nosmokes ) on December 24, 2007 at 3:51 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Another creationist/ID religious charade tossed out of our schools! All praise the Holey Rigatoni! rAmen.
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Posted by ( hiskeys ) on December 24, 2007 at 9:42 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
JimAtTheRefuge
I'm familiar with the Dover case, but the intentions of a textbook or institution still do not address the specifics of the design argument.
I'm also familiar with Paley, however, it seems that his argument still stands - since it is so widespread and intuitive, it would need to be clearly shown otherwise when it comes to biological systems. In other words, the general theory of evolution still stands with the burden of proof to demonstrate what is a counter-intuitive process. (There's additional weight of the burden of proof when it comes to showing vast increases in complexity in the light of thermodynamics.) One could also argue that, in living systems, the complexity is greatly compounded by their tenacious ability to reproduce, not to mention the overwhelming variety of reproductive methods in plant and animal life.
The challenges become even greater when considering the mechanisms of Darwinism. The observable processes of natural selection and mutation, even when combined, still do not exhibit the capability to produce the levels of interaction and complexity that exist. After all, natural selection is selective, not creative, hence the name. And mutation as well, simply alters pre-existing material without explaining its origin.
Once again, burden of proof piles on in the fields of artificial selection. Breeders of animals and crops are intimately familiar with limits of the selective process - after hundreds of years, still no dogs the size of mice or elephants, or with scales or feathers. And we've observed bacteria for decades in our laboratories. It would seem that thousands of generations would provide ample opportunity to display significant change.
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Posted by ( sepulchre ) on December 24, 2007 at 5:26 p.m.
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Posted by ( Sciedpower ) on December 25, 2007 at 10:20 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
There are a number of folks on this thread who appear to need a review of the science curriculum. First, a scientific theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It is not equivalent to "theory" as used in everyday parlance.
By parroting the "it's only a theory" canard, the proponents of ID are only revealing painfully obvious (and inexcusable) ignorance on this subject.
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Posted by ( benderjim1023 ) on December 26, 2007 at 2:45 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable. H.L. Mencken
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Posted by ( 1kewldad ) on December 26, 2007 at 3:10 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
I believe in evolution, but there is one point that I have not heard an explanation for. Before the Big Bang, where did all that matter and energy come from? I believe there is a higher power, but I don't subscribe to the religious doctrines.
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Posted by ( beth ) on December 26, 2007 at 3:53 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
I think that the scientific explination for evolution should be tought in science. BUT I also think that offering a world religions course is a great idea. That way kids can hear a variety of ideas and their supportive facts and be able to make up their own minds.
(I personally believe the scientific explination, but do borrow from a wide range of religious beliefs.)
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Posted by ( Sciedpower ) on December 26, 2007 at 5:55 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
How 'bout these "evolution is just a theory folks" take a long walk off a nearby cliff? After all, gravitation is "just a theory" "not a fact".
Bunch of closed-minded, ignorant, religious fanatics who refuse to live in the real world is what they are (just what one would expect from a species of ape which only recently evolved consiousness).
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Posted by ( drdneast ) on December 26, 2007 at 7:49 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
After President Reagan won 2 elections the religious right was perplexed and frustrated that they still couldn't get their narrow minded beliefs and morals thrust onto the rest of us hapless heathens. It was at this time, under the tutorledge of the "Moral Majority," they began to covet school board positions and lower level political posts. I see in Polk County this took root. Polk County is led by a bunch of goobers who want to live like a TV sitcom from the 50's because they think that was how most people lived in the 50's. They have a school board full of goobers and a sheriff who is a goober who doesn't even know when someone is breaking the law. I understand they asked Lucifer if he wanted to be the mayor of Lakeland and he said he would rather serve in heaven.
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Posted by ( Ohnoyoudidnt ) on December 26, 2007 at 8:38 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
It still amazes me that the revisionists are still trying to convince the rest of us that the US Constitution is based on christian principles. No where does it refer to jesus, only "Creator" and "God" which are generic terms used by most religions. I guess they never did their research to find that over 1/2 of the founding fathers were not christians at all. But, the right wing religious revisionists would prefer that we not know that, just like they'd prefer that we not know about REAL scientific theories, and processes but instead blindly follow their made up, ID fairy tale.
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Posted by ( Ohnoyoudidnt ) on December 26, 2007 at 8:42 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
signit4bes-
The Flying Spaghetti Monster theory is just as plausible as ID...and vise verse
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Posted by ( drdneast ) on December 26, 2007 at 10:58 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
In regards to Ohnoyoudidit's remarks, you are absolutely right. Most of our founding fathers were Freemasons, a group that, in the 1700's, were trying to seperate government and science away from religion. Besides, if they were such great religous christians, what were a number of them doing owning human beings as "SLAVES." Not very christian like. I understand Larry Craig is moving to Lakeland and is going to run for Mayor wrapped in an American flag and holding a bible.
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Posted by ( Ohnoyoudidnt ) on December 26, 2007 at 11:23 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross." ~ Sinclair Lewis
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Posted by ( gaki ) on December 27, 2007 at 3:38 a.m.
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Posted by ( gaki ) on December 27, 2007 at 3:59 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
@ hiskeys
Of course, the best proof that we aren't Intelligently Designed is that our design isn't particularly intelligent.
What designer uses the same tube for both eating and breathing so that you run into issues with choking? What designer leaves in spare parts of no discernible use like tailbones or appendixes? What designer puts the waste excretion tubes in the same location as the organs for propagation of the species, which gives rise to yeast infections, urinary tract infections, etc.? What designer makes a body with such a poor ability to heat regulate that it has to cover itself with additional clothing instead of having fur? What designer would leave out gills on a planet that is 90% water?
Not a designer particularly good at his job, at any rate.
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Posted by ( NEDLY ) on December 27, 2007 at 9:34 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Amen Gaki
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Posted by ( Luna ) on December 27, 2007 at 9:56 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Gaki your posts are spot on. Too bad few here know what either an order of magnitude or extrapolation is. Thank you for being a well spoken voice of reason. I'm beginning to lose the end of a thin amount of respect for posters in this forum but you'll keep me here a bit longer.
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Posted by ( Chris_Tucker ) on December 27, 2007 at 1:36 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
My "Bible" is the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, and Mark's Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers. My "Concordance" is The Pocket Ref, 3rd Edition.
The symbol of my faith is not an ancient torture device, it's a slide rule. The simple three part device that helped build the Brooklyn Bridge, Hoover Dam and the Empire State Building, as well as sending humans to the Moon and returning them to Earth.
Algebra and Calculus are my liturgy, and Physics is the celebration of all that exists, from the smallest subatomic particle yet to be discovered, to the whole Universe.
The "Saints" of my faith are legion. Galileo and Einstein, Sagan and Asimov, Eratosthenes and Fermi, Hawking and Feynman, Dawkins and Darwin, Jefferson and Franklin and Paine, and countless others who have sought and still seek to expand the knowledge of how the Universe works, for the betterment of all, to free the minds of humanity from the shackles of superstition and ignorance, and, finally & simply, "To Know."
I worship no god, nor bend the knee to anyone, man or god.
And yet, despite my lack of fawning obeisance to the judeochristian deity, I do not rape nor rob nor murder my fellow man or woman. I do not defraud them nor seek to enslave their bodies or their minds. I do not turn my face from them if their beliefs differ from mine, nor do I condemn them if they choose to love someone of the same sex or of a different "race".
My friends include the gay and the straight, the atheist and the deeply faithful, Caucasian, African and Asian.
I help the less fortunate in this world as best I can, and do not seek to convert them to my way of thought, merely to ease their suffering.
I choose to stand in the Light of Knowledge and Reason. I choose to oppose Darkness that is ignorance and superstition.
And I KNOW that, in the end, it IS Knowledge and Reason that will triumph over ignorance and superstition, and those who would use ignorance and superstition for their own evil and ego-driven ends.
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Posted by ( Kbass10 ) on December 27, 2007 at 2:01 p.m.
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Posted by ( beth ) on December 27, 2007 at 3:59 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Chris-
Beautiful statement, thank you.
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Posted by ( beware ) on December 27, 2007 at 4:37 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
The "Theory" of Evolution is just that....... and nothing more!
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Posted by ( nprvoice ) on December 27, 2007 at 6:53 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
sludge vs spaghetti
and one side acts "superior?"
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Posted by ( Ohnoyoudidnt ) on December 27, 2007 at 8:55 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Chris_tucker-
Very nice!!! You are an enlightened person indeed :-)
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Posted by ( Ohnoyoudidnt ) on December 27, 2007 at 8:57 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
beware-
and the "superstition" of ID is just that.....and nothing more.
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Posted by ( hiskeys ) on December 27, 2007 at 9:56 p.m.
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Posted by ( DreaCPA ) on December 27, 2007 at 10:15 p.m.
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Posted by ( lstgrps ) on December 27, 2007 at 10:20 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
religious people should accept that government schools cannot support your religion in anyway these days. The teachers do not want to teach intelligent design they are just there to molest your children and give them grades in exchange for various sexual favors . . .
hmm why would religious people WANT to put their kids in govt. schools with this stuff going on there every day and the lack of the ability to influence the direction of the curriculum?
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Posted by ( DanPalmer ) on December 28, 2007 at 12:45 a.m.
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Posted by ( Ohnoyoudidnt ) on December 28, 2007 at 8:21 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
hiskeys-
The only "known facts" we have about ID are that it is based solely on religious faith and biblical superstition. There are NO scientific facts to support it whatsoever.
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Posted by ( Ohnoyoudidnt ) on December 28, 2007 at 8:33 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
DanPalmer-
Your post supports the fact that ID is just religion blanketed in fake science, and as such should be excluded from our public schools. If you really want your children to learn about the superstitions you believe in and not proven scientific theories then you should home school them. Religious beliefs should be taught in the home and in church, not in public schools. There are not enough hours in a school day to give them a well rounded religious education in public schools once you give equal time to christianity, Hinduism, Islam, various Orthodox religions, Buddhism, etc., etc., etc. And then you'll get mad that someone wants to teach them about religions other than your own... Religion has no place in an educational setting.
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Posted by ( TlalocW ) on December 28, 2007 at 2:32 p.m.
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Posted by ( DanPalmer ) on December 28, 2007 at 5:10 p.m.
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Posted by ( calan ) on December 28, 2007 at 5:13 p.m.
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Posted by ( DanPalmer ) on December 28, 2007 at 8:17 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Calan
Oh wonderful, semantics, epistemology, and post-modernism...all in one post! But sadly lacking in apodictic certainty. Perhaps a discussion of apriori and aposteriori would be in order too. And I love the phrase "known truth". I don't know any logician who'd dare.
I'm sorry folks, but David Hume (1711-1776) put science and religion on the same level of certainty and nobody in the world of epistemology has cracked that nut. Just JTB and JTB+...
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Posted by ( bandelier ) on December 29, 2007 at 10:41 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
My special time at the Creation Museum:
http://buffalobeast.com/117/let_there_be_retards.htm
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Posted by ( hiskeys ) on December 29, 2007 at 4:10 p.m.
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Posted by ( barrettf ) on December 30, 2007 at 12:02 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Hiskeys, you can save your breath trying to claim that ID is not religious. Every fellow at the Discovery Institute has been quoted talking about God being the designer. All the conservative Christian spokespersons have linked ID with creationism. Smoking gun evidence was produced in court, ID is Creationism. The secret is out. Get over it.
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Posted by ( byrnes3969 ) on December 31, 2007 at 2:06 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Atheists and Anti-Christians are the new NAZIS.
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Posted by ( barrettf ) on December 31, 2007 at 5:30 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Oh, byrnes3969, you are funny. Nazis were notorious for not being tolerant, in fact they killed lots of people who disagreed with them. Conservative Christians admit that "tolerance" is a dirty word, and condemn anyone who is different to hell. So who is most like the Nazis, name callers like you or your victims?
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Posted by ( byrnes3969 ) on January 1, 2008 at 2:22 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Hey barrettf
What victims are YOU talking about??
And since when does the Conservative Christian movement check in with YOU to discuss ANYTHING? Let alone give YOU the authority to speak for them?
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Posted by ( The_Ill_Tempered_Klavier ) on January 1, 2008 at 6:34 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Hardly anyone ever seems to bring up the biggest problem with the Paley argument: If the existence of a watch implies a watchmaker, then a watchmaker implies a maker of watchmakers which implies a maker of makers which implies....PHRAAAAARGHHHH. It's just turtles ALL!!! the way down.
Better to consider one of the few things the Pope has said which I can wholeheartedly agree with: "The Holy Scripture is not the blueprint by which Heaven was built, but the manual on how to get there."
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Posted by ( byrnes3969 ) on January 2, 2008 at 10:59 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Too bad that Manual the Pope refers to is contraband in the eyes of the national public school Gestapo.
Maybe kids can slip a Harry Potter book cover over their Bibles.
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Posted by ( Ohnoyoudidnt ) on January 4, 2008 at 8:39 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
byrnes3969-
And you would be OK if the public schools gave a balanced education on religion then...and also taught the Koran, Torah, the Bhagavad Gita, and which form of Christianity; Catholicism, Unitarianism. The problem is that each religion and sect thinks that there way is the only right way, so no one will ever be happy with religion being taught in public schools because there is no "one right religion".
Best course of action, if you want your kids to learn YOUR religion...take them to YOUR church, and teach them about it in YOUR home, not in OUR public schools.
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Posted by ( byrnes3969 ) on January 7, 2008 at 1:50 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
No Oh,
Where are getting that I want religion taught in public schools?
Teachers have tremendous difficulty teaching math and science, do you think I would want them to try and train children's hearts?
I love your position though, you claim that all religions are EQUAL simply because they are a religious belief. Don't confuse fairness with significance.
The majority of people in this country have a Judeo-Christian heritage. If schools WANTED to explore our religious heritage it would be logical that they would study the Old and New Testaments. EVEN IF only from a historical and cultural perspective.
Unless, YOU think that the Bible has no significance to OUR country's heritage? Or that the Bhagavad Gita has played a greater one? and equal one?
C'mon, even Atheists and Christian haters like you will agree there is NO OTHER BOOK that has impacted Western Civilization more than The Bible!
You obviously can't stand Christianity and that you would deny its significant place in history shows your bigotry.
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Posted by ( Ohnoyoudidnt ) on January 7, 2008 at 4:27 p.m.
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Posted by ( byrnes3969 ) on January 7, 2008 at 5:53 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
No Oh,
They are all PROTECTED under the CONSTITUTION. The Constitution does not provide for, or endorse any religion and therefore does not declare that ALL religions are equal as you claim.
It's supposed to protect our freedom to practice our religion(s) from tyrannical governments and ACLU attorneys who would take away our freedom to practice WHERE-EVER we choose.
Who are YOU to tell people where and how they're allowed to worship? Our Constitution protects our freedom OF religion it says nothing that YOU will have freedom from religion.
As stated in my last posting the MAJORITY of Americans are Christians and an even LARGER majority believe in God. How about if YOU'RE offended by this than YOU can go somewhere else!
And, just for the record, NO ONE FORCES YOU to adopt their religion, you either choose it or not. But unless you live in a bubble you get solicitations every day from someone. Why should an offer to save your soul be so offensive?
As I stated earlier, I don't want people like you trying to interpret the Old and New Testaments. You failed to respond on whether you believed the Bible has historical, cultural, and moral significance to Western Civilization. Can I infer that you feel it doesn't?
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Posted by ( Ohnoyoudidnt ) on January 7, 2008 at 8:14 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
It's obvious you've bought into the rubbish the fundamentalist have been spewing over the last 20 years. Claiming that christianity deserves "special consideration" under the constitution to be favored, and treated unequally. The exact opposite of what the founding fathers had intended (they did leave England because the church IMPOSED it's will on all aspects of life).
You are right, no one forces me to adopt their religion, but not because they don't try, it's because I am not gullible enough to fall for their fear mongering and close mindedness. And I'm not going anywhere because some brainwashed, thinks they know it all group of zealots wants me to conform to what they believe. The foundation of this country is that we are all free to believe in whatever we please. It is YOUR CLOSED MINDED, "go somewhere else" attitude that is the perfect example of why christianity (since you correctly point out that it is the predominant religion) must not be allowed to supercede what the founding fathers created. We really don't need a christian version of the Taliban, but if the religious leaders of this country are allowed to revise history, and the law, that is precisely what will happen.
You'd hate that I'd point out that the old and new testaments have be REWRITTEN to conform to the thoughts of the time, contradict themselves, and make claims that are scientifically wrong...that's why you don't want me to interpret the bible; because I don't believe just because some preacher or priest tells me it is so; I actually use my brain to think, not just as a storage mechanism for what someone else wants me to regurgitate.
The bible has been a very influential document in western civilization. Too bad it is being distorted and used for political and power gains in our society today. Reminds me of the crusades...something else that a belief in the bible had a SIGNIFICANT impact on...
The CONSTITUTION has been THE most influential document in the history of THIS COUNTRY; THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. It NEEDS to remain that in order for our society to flourish without being infected by the theocrats that would turn it into a Taliban state.
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Posted by ( Ohnoyoudidnt ) on January 7, 2008 at 9:45 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
It's no accident that more people have been killed throughout the course of history because of religion than any other unnatural cause. Religious zealots will stop at NOTHING to make sure that THEIR WAY is the ONLY WAY people are allowed to do/believe things.
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Posted by ( byrnes3969 ) on January 7, 2008 at 9:56 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Oh,
Dude, put down the crack-pipe.
No-one is trying to secretly CONVERT you via secret coded messages coming through your TV or by UFO.
We Zealoty Christians abandoned that project ages ago :)
If you take anti-psychotic medications, NOW would be a good time to take one. You are obviously OBSESSED that Christians are trying to TAKE OVER so, have a nice life with your "no-god" faith.
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Posted by ( Ohnoyoudidnt ) on January 7, 2008 at 11:13 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
I like how you revert to personal attacks. I expect that though... it's a typical reaction.
Logic gets in the way of your religious musings so you have to drag out the "you must be crazy", UFO, secret coded messages" card. It's terribly immature but as I said expected
I know, they've trained you to think that way, they've brainwashed you to believe that everyone who thinks differently is somehow defective. Only one of us really needs meds, and help from the psycho field, and it certainly isn't me.
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Posted by ( byrnes3969 ) on January 7, 2008 at 11:41 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
No, You're OK, really, you're OK.
It's just that "other guy" in your head who keeps telling you we're ALL BRAINWASHED and out there to GET you.
Get some help.
Hey... gotta go now, I'm getting my daily brain-washing beamed down from the mother-ship. I'll check back with you as soon as I go over our master plan to enslave the world.
Muahahahahh!!
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Posted by ( Ohnoyoudidnt ) on January 8, 2008 at 6:50 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
When you get to the mother ship, ask your fearless leader and head of all thoughts you are allowed to possess this. "If god made Adam from clay, and Eve out of Adam's rib", then where did the rest of mankind come from...because the bible explicitly condemns incest. Since god made only Adam and Eve, either the story is a farce, or there were already other people on the planet...
Ask them what the proper "spin" on the story is...
Maybe the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" artificially inseminated Eve with one of his noodly appendages... LOL
Ask them how Noah kept the 2 tigers from eating the 2 rabbits on the boat...and did mankind again rebuild itself after the great flood by incest? Something seems fishy about these stories...
Hopefully your all knowing leaders can spin these into pretty webs...
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Posted by ( byrnes3969 ) on January 8, 2008 at 8:55 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Your perversion of Christianity is sad.
There's really nothing left to say to you except "get some help". Your thinking is really damaged. Perhaps incest hit closer to home for you. Go talk to your mom.
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Posted by ( Ohnoyoudidnt ) on January 8, 2008 at 3:52 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
There you go again with the personal attacks; very "christian" of you, I guess I should expect nothing less. I see you don't want to engage in an actual intelligent dialog. You can't answer the questions, or address the issues.
Or is it that you know in your heart that the issues I raised are legit and valid, and can't be reasonably addressed?
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Posted by ( byrnes3969 ) on January 8, 2008 at 5:28 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
You're either insane or stupid.
All you can do is lob CRAZY left field perverted bigotry. I don't debate