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Bucs Announce Extensions For Gruden, Allen
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Published: January 22, 2008
Updated: 01/22/2008 12:03 pm
TAMPA - Coach Jon Gruden and General Manager Bruce Allen, who combined to lead the Buccaneers to two division titles in the past three seasons, have each been rewarded with three-year contract extensions.
The Bucs announced the extensions in a news release today. An NFL source close to the negotiations confirmed to The Tampa Tribune on Monday that Gruden and Allen are now under contract through the 2011 season.
On Friday, the Bucs signed longtime defensive coordinator Monte Kiffin to a multi-year extension.
Tampa Bay rebounded from a 4-12 season to win the NFC South in 2007, vaulting from last to first despite fielding the league's youngest offensive line. The Bucs also worked in new defensive players such as rookie free safety Tanard Jackson, middle linebacker Barrett Ruud and rookie lineman Gaines Adams.
With new quarterback Jeff Garcia, the Bucs bolted to an 8-4 start and clinched the division Dec. 16, but a 24-14 home setback to the Giants in the opening playoff round relegated Tampa Bay to a 9-8 finish in Gruden's sixth season.
Moments after the playoff loss, Bucs ownership said the '07 club had made significant strides, establishing a young base to build upon.
Gruden led the 2002 Bucs to a Super Bowl victory against Oakland in his first year in Tampa. Despite a 7-9 season in 2003, Gruden received a two-year extension through 2008, earning approximately $4.3 million this past season.
Allen joined the Bucs in 2004 after nine years as an executive with the Raiders. Like Gruden's deal, Allen's contract was set to expire after the 2008 season.
Tampa Bay went 5-11 in Allen's first season before reversing that record and edging Carolina for the 2005 NFC South crown. The Bucs then dropped a 17-10 decision to Washington at home in the NFC wild-card round.
Allen and Gruden, who worked together in Oakland for four seasons, have reunited to form a productive partnership. Allen has cleaned up the difficult salary-cap situation he inherited and recently said the Bucs are $23 million under for the 2008 cap.
Overall, Gruden is 48-48 with the Bucs during the regular season and 3-2 in the postseason.
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Reader Comments
Posted by ( KennyT ) on January 22, 2008 at 8:39 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Oh NO!! Say it isn't so.
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Posted by ( DJP ) on January 22, 2008 at 8:46 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Someone get Jake Plummer on the phone...oh boy....
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Posted by ( tomcat ) on January 22, 2008 at 9:07 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Well how about that. It is no suprise they did it.
But If he last three years the team will again be one of the the lower tier teams in the league.
It is a shame because we have a great defense and need only a little help from the offense to go further in the playoffs. But that will not happen with our current foul mouth under achieving coach. This team and city deserve better.
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Posted by ( ufojoe ) on January 22, 2008 at 10:17 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Whine, whine whine...
If the Bucs falter next year, I'll eat my words. But I think this is a great move for the team and the stability (and cap room and full draft picks) will help us get back to the playoffs next year.
Our running game was the best it's been in a long time. Now we just need two stud receivers with speed.
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Posted by ( HJF868 ) on January 22, 2008 at 10:32 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
I believe that if the up and down trend of making the playoffs and being one and done when they do make it continue during these next 3 years, the ownership will go in a different direction.If the Bucs would have gone farther in the playoffs, Gruden and Allen would have gotten longer extensions.
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Posted by ( pareed003 ) on January 22, 2008 at 10:36 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
I for one am excited as I see us improving even more next year. We also get to hear all the Gruden haters whine for a couple more years. Yee haw!
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Posted by ( BayAreaBud81 ) on January 22, 2008 at 10:48 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Improving next year? Sounds like the song we were singing after the 2005 season. The deck is stacked against Gruden. They're going to London, they'll have other non Sunday 1:00 games which they will struggle with. The Super Bowl will be played in Tampa. Brian Billick was fired from the Ravens this year even after receiving an extension for the Ravens 2006 performance. Gruden/Allen will follow suit
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Posted by ( untexan ) on January 22, 2008 at 11 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Sucks to be a Gruden hater today, doesn't it. Don't hurt yourself falling off your high horses.
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Posted by ( KBA ) on January 22, 2008 at 11:03 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Man ... lots of negative nancies out there.
Gruden produced our first Super Bowl win. He then, along with Allen, got us through salary cap problems that our former GM got us into. Don't believe me, .. look at the Falcons today.
Now past the salary cap problems and I think Gruden & Allen have done a nice job this year with making the team better.
Why not give them a few more years to see if they can take that to the next level. They got younger on defense and have one of the youngest offensive lines. Sure they have more puzzle pieces to fit in, but I believe we should wait and see instead of complaining.
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Posted by ( TampaCyber ) on January 22, 2008 at 11:03 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
BayAreaBud81, yeah that London thing sure didn't work out for the Giants
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Posted by ( KBA ) on January 22, 2008 at 11:14 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
I don't like them playing in the UK game either. That's a tough week on the team. They don't travel well to the west coast either.
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Posted by ( daisy4444 ) on January 22, 2008 at 11:27 a.m.
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Posted by ( msornstein ) on January 22, 2008 at 11:27 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
It would be nice if some of the people who suppodely were fans would get their heads out of (well you know where) and looked at the big picture around the league. I live in Atlanta now but have been a Bucs fan for many years, There are alot of us up here. Look at the problems that McKay created up here for this team, they can't even find a head coach who wants to come here. I do feel sorry for Mr. Blank because he is a really great guy.
Look at the teams who have gotten new coaches who don't do well and then are trashed a year or two later. Do you want a Brian Billick here? I for one don't. Who else is out there (hmmmmm).
I believe that this team is now poised to be a serious contender in the years to come. No more salary cap hell, last years draft was pretty good and who can say this year? The path may not always be easy but I feel that the coming years it will be good to be a REAL BUCS FAN.
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Posted by ( TampaCracker ) on January 22, 2008 at 11:33 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Great move!! Lets stay the course...With a few free agents and another solid draft, I think we are contenders next year!!
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Posted by ( dickc ) on January 22, 2008 at 12:12 p.m.
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Posted by ( BayAreaBud81 ) on January 22, 2008 at 12:12 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
In response to London game, look at the Dolphins.
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Posted by ( BayAreaBud81 ) on January 22, 2008 at 12:13 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
If the Bucs can't even win on the West Coast, up North (Giants stadium in particular), they won't survive in London.
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Posted by ( bobmac ) on January 22, 2008 at 12:18 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
what a mistake! joe gibbs felt he could do his team no good so he quit. gruden, why not imitate a far better coach like joe gibbs. resign as head coach. give our team a chance.
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Posted by ( KBA ) on January 22, 2008 at 12:37 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Daisy4444 ... I don't understand your comment about the Bucs not playing young players. Did you miss the fact that 4 out 5 of the offensive linemen are 1st or 2nd year players? And how about Ruud or Tanard or Gaines? He's played other young players over the last couple years but they didn't perform.
I also don't understand your comment about losing guys because of Gruden. We had great comraderie within our locker room; maybe the best in years this season. Is that by accident?
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Posted by ( Kublai88 ) on January 22, 2008 at 12:40 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
C'mon folks. We absolutley limped into the playoffs this year, even though we did it several weeks before the end of the regular season. Remember the game where we clinched a playoff spot? Against the Saints? Only because of a Saints' coaching decision that turned out to be rather dumb in hindsight that gave us the ball back when it was all but over otherwise. And what have we done since then? We beat Atlanta-- a team with serious psyche issues, not just a lousy record. That's it!
There is a serious bout of baseless optimism this year going around. Did we get better than 2006? Yes, but only marginally. At this rate of improvement we could be bona fide contenders in about 3-5 years. . . but when do some of our key contributors start to disappear, before that? What we need is set our sights on more than just next year. Odds are we won't be Superbowling it anytime soon.
I find Chucky entertaining just as much as the next guy, but since winning a Superbowl with a team totally built by another staff and against a team he already knew very well, I have not seen much to warrant a commitment to 2011. I find Jim Carey entertaining too, but don't want him coaching the Bucs based on his ability to contort HIS face.
I am still sore about sending Lynch packing. Not to mention his obvious lethal hitting ability, he was a real leader on the team, that was obvious.
No, I havent seen anything to get fired up about since before that terrible six minutes against Indy on Monday night in 2003.
A dubious move today, Tampa Bay.
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Posted by ( KBA ) on January 22, 2008 at 12:46 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
DickC .... Let's discuss that so called "pretend playoff game". We got beat by the better team, period. It would have been worse if the Giants got killed by Dallas but they did better than that; they won the NFC on the road no less. So we got beat by the best team in the NFC. Did you think we were good enough to do that this year? I certainly didn't.
Not sure how or why you see that any different thus calling it a pretend playoff game?
Remember Gruden got us to this "pretend playoff game" with what 15 or so key guys out for the season on I.R.
I say thanks to Gruden and Allen for a great season.
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Posted by ( shbama ) on January 22, 2008 at 12:56 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
once again....gruden won the superbowl on Tony Dungey shirt tail. Tampa does deserve better. Someone like Tony! Bring him back and send gruden packing.
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Posted by ( dalatorr ) on January 22, 2008 at 12:57 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
KBA got it right.
First, Gruden's ego: man, if I won the Super Bowl my first year in the job, YOU WOULDN"T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TELL ME ANYTHING!!! And if it were you, you'd be the same. You'd have to suffer a few setbacks to get a little humble again. EVERY head coach has an ego. Remember when Dungy was here, how FRUSTRATING it was? No? I didn't want him to leave, but I felt the Glazers would try to get somebody who could get us over the top. They did. Dungy needed that kick in the rear, and it served him well, too.
If I were Gruden coming to tampa back then, I'd try to tell my potential boss that
1. your team is poised to win the Super Bowl and I can get them there
2. Your salary cap is a mess and I'll have my best shot in year one
3. Don't expect much for 3 years afterwards, because we won't have draft picks or money
4. Rich McKay did most of that, so he's gotta go
5. If I come, you can't blame me for items 2-4, but once we're past that, watch out. We will do great things.
This did not occur in a vacuum or with a moron, despite what Duemig would have you believe. Glazer, one of the most successful businessmen in the world, may know a little more about running an NFL franchise than an angry afternoon sports radio guy who makes a living by inciting listeners with whatever technique is required.
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Posted by ( KBA ) on January 22, 2008 at 12:59 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Kublai88 ... you make some great points. I prefer logic any day over emotional comments with little basis.
My point is not that every thing is rosy but that it is not nearly as bad as some of the emotional comments made.
We beat some weak teams this year for sure. I would also agree that a solid replacement for Garcia & Galloway is a huge concern going forward.
And does a 3 year extension really mean anything? They could be fired after next season if they don't perform. The extension was necessary to lure free agents in the offseason, period. I think they at least deserve more time to rebuild. They inherited an aging team with salary cap issues and are working out of it.
You mentioned that they may not make it to the super bowl for the next 3 to 5 years but how many teams go that often anyway? Is that the barometer for success? Superbowl every what 3 to 5 years or you suck?
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Posted by ( KBA ) on January 22, 2008 at 1:07 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Hey Shbama .... no "e" in Dungy buddy. Your comment would be better if you could spell.
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Posted by ( dickc ) on January 22, 2008 at 1:12 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Pretend playoff game means we did not play anyone to get there.Only got there because the rest of the division was so BAD,made the BUCS look good.Leave Steve alone he knows what he is talking about.
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Posted by ( dalatorr ) on January 22, 2008 at 1:15 p.m.
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Posted by ( dalatorr ) on January 22, 2008 at 1:17 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
pretend playoff game like the Patriots got? They didn't play a lot of teams with good records this regular season, either
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Posted by ( miket ) on January 22, 2008 at 1:25 p.m.
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Posted by ( KBA ) on January 22, 2008 at 1:37 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Hmmmm .... and I thought that only Wins & Loses mattered?
You are right DickC in that only 2 of our wins came against teams that made it to the playoffs. However, I'd also note that beating a divisional team is never easy because all teams play tougher in their division and still we went 5-1 in the division with 15 or so key guys on I.R.
So I wouldn't call any playoff game a "pretend playoff game". This team earned it!!!!!
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Posted by ( Gene ) on January 22, 2008 at 1:39 p.m.
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Posted by ( dalatorr ) on January 22, 2008 at 1:41 p.m.
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Posted by ( dwatus ) on January 22, 2008 at 1:48 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Yippee--looking forward to 3-13 next year.
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Posted by ( dalatorr ) on January 22, 2008 at 1:49 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
You know, when you say that Gruden won with Dungy's team, that is a HUGE insult to Dungy.
When you say we didn't beat any good teams, that is a HUGE insult to our defense.
And there's always a stat to look at to make things look bad. Wins and losses? Gruden is .500 coach? With all the draft picks we gave up for him and Keyshawn, etc (thanks, Rich McKay!) and then no salary cap money, HOW IS THAT HIS FAULT? Who could put a winning team on the field in those circumstances? Almost nobody.
Wins and losses: a Super Bowl only counts as one win in that equation, right? Yeah, looking at THAT stat matters.
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Posted by ( KBA ) on January 22, 2008 at 2:02 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Delatorr ... unfortunately some people just don't get it. They make emotional comments with less than stellar facts and then when you call them out on these blogs, they don't respond because they don't know how to make a logical argument.
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Posted by ( dickc ) on January 22, 2008 at 2:04 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Let's let the ticket sales show how many Gruden supporters there are,and how many of you Gruden lovers are season ticket holders?
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Posted by ( KBA ) on January 22, 2008 at 2:12 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Dwatus ....... Next Year's schedule is tough. New England, Giants, Dallas, Washington, Philly, Green Bay, Seattle. Those are the tough one's. Then Jets, Bills, Miami, and our division of Saints, Falcons, Panthers (each twice).
We could be 7-9 next year with that schedule. But then consider all of the players we get off of I.R. and the cap money we have to spend. At minimum, I doubt we will be 3-13 next year. However, stranger things have happened in the NFL.
I do know this. It's a little early to be that freaking negative. What do you gain by making just that statement on a blog and saying nothing else?
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Posted by ( KBA ) on January 22, 2008 at 2:20 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
DickC .... No one is willing to lay their life down for Gruden here. I'm just not going to sit here and listen to all this unwaranted bashing of the guy. I'm some where in the middle.
Now, if next year he sucks it back up and he does have all the resources (i.e. the 15 guys off I.R. and new faster talent in free agency), then I'm willing to rethink my position. Until then, I think we stay the course. He did a good job this year and deserves to keep rebuilding.
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Posted by ( bucsfanfitz ) on January 22, 2008 at 2:33 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
I honestly don't understand the gruden bashing.No one thought this team would sniff the playoffs,much less make the playoffs after injury after injury to key players.Gruden has played young players (t-jack,gaines,sears)and the team appears to only be getting better.another draft and possibly lance briggs replacing brooks ,future is bright!Next years schedule is tough but I will take my chances with Gruden and these new BUCS!
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Posted by ( dickc ) on January 22, 2008 at 2:38 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Are you season ticket holders and are you putting your money where your hearts are?
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Posted by ( miket ) on January 22, 2008 at 2:58 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
dickc I don't understand what being season ticket holders has to do with it, yes I am a season ticket holder and support gruden, but numerous season ticket holders could care less about the Bucs and just have them as an investmnet, the true Buc fans for the most part are priced out of owning season tickets, so you don't have to be a season ticket holder to support the Bucs or Gruden in my opinion, becasue by your logic then only about 60,000 people can support the bucs.
I have no problem with Gruden coaching another year he did an excellent job this year to get the Bucs into a position no one thought they could achieve even before the injuries, if he fails this year then yes maybe they should look elsewhere, remember a 3 year extension doesn't mean they can't fire him anytime before then.
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Posted by ( KBA ) on January 22, 2008 at 3:12 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
DickC .... MikeT is right. Most fans can't afford to go to a Bucs game anymore but that doesn't mean they can't be a fan and therefore have an opinion.
Also, for the record, I'm on the waiting list to get some if it matters.
What point are you trying to make? Can you please keep it be based on team facts?
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Posted by ( clairvoyantent ) on January 22, 2008 at 3:37 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
A note to the negative half of the Bucs fan base: To all of you who have crappy jobs, lousy marriages, stupid kids, and an overall negative outlook on everything in life... find some other route to spread your negativity. There are plenty of forums to complain about the economy, the president, the real estate market. Sports is supposed to be entertainment. Entertainment! We have a really good team with an absolute great outlook with young players, great coaches, and tons of cap room. Why not enjoy that? Why not root for that? The past 6 years have been the most successful 6 year run in franchise history - 3 division titles and a Super Bowl win. How many teams would kill for that? Other than the Patriots, and maybe the Colts, who melse can claim that success the past 6 years? Why waste all of your time complaining about a situation that is better than at least 27 other franchises out there? What coach would you hire? Cowher who had 1 Super Bowl win in 13 years? Guys, have a cup of coffee, take a deep breath, and ENJOY this team. Spend all the time and negative energy on far more important things... like trying to figure out why you hate life so much.
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Posted by ( brucebaudendistel ) on January 22, 2008 at 4:37 p.m.
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Posted by ( dwatus ) on January 22, 2008 at 4:41 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
KBA--You made my point...2004 5-11 record results in an easier schedule; therefore bucs went 11-5 in 2005 (then one and done in the playoffs); 2006 harder schedule resulted in 4-12; again, the record results an easier schedule and the bucs go to the playoffs in 2007 (again one and done). Gruden was hired because he was declared an offensive genius, thought to be the missing cog in Dungy's otherwise winning machine. In six years, we have yet to see anything genius about the offense. If a mediocre team is what you want, you are going to get it for the immediate future. All bucs fans should expect better--why would you want mediocrity? By the way I do love my life--because I refuse to accept less than the best.
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Posted by ( Gene ) on January 22, 2008 at 4:44 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Kiffen is more important as to why the Bucs do well. Gruden is mediocre. Time to root against the Bucs just because of Gruden.
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Posted by ( EAD ) on January 22, 2008 at 4:49 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
WHY???????????
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Posted by ( pareed003 ) on January 22, 2008 at 4:50 p.m.
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Posted by ( atlantabuc1 ) on January 22, 2008 at 5:33 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Well deserved extensions for sure, a super bowl(with Brad Johnson at QB and no offensive line), 3 years of cap jail now being felt here in Atl, 3 division championships in 5 years and 10 starters in their first 3 years. Add to that cap room and I take our future anytime...and I will keep my tickets!! Go Gruden, Monte and Bucs!!
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Posted by ( ahall20 ) on January 22, 2008 at 6:02 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Are the Bucs crazy. What has "Chucky" done but destroy a Super Bowl Team?? I hope they lose every game!!!
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Posted by ( daisy4444 ) on January 22, 2008 at 6:05 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
To the jer-(person) that said,"What would you do", just 180 deg from what Gruden does!!! Mr or Ms KBA, you just talk out of your A--!!!!!
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Posted by ( pzee ) on January 22, 2008 at 6:10 p.m.
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Posted by ( Kublai88 ) on January 22, 2008 at 6:34 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Sorry to have not shown back up quickly enough for your liking KBA-- I wrote initially during my lunch break-- gotta job, you know.
I would not consider myself a Gruden hater-- I don't spend a lot of time listening to Sportsradio or anything, I don't see myself aligned with either side. But it is hard to argue that he has accomplished much of anything at the helm since January 2003. I am just a guy who likes football, who has been watching since I was six, including logging alot of time in the Big Sombrero since day one.
As for inheriting Coach Dungy's team, well, he did. He tweaked it a bit, but the years of work building the core, the chemistry, that was in Coach Dungy's locker room. I did not like the fact we couldn't score enough points with Coach Dungy's "fundamentals and strong defense is enough" strategy to match what was clearly a defense for the ages, but he had an excellent team. To suggest Coach Gruden walked in, snapped his fingers and created the success seems to me to be a more disingenuous position to take.
Remember the buzz a few weeks ago-- "don't worry about losing that last regular season game, just focus on the Giants. . . we'll have no trouble beating them." Uh, yeah.
My comment about 3-5 years meant that we are not 365 days away from being in the big game. . . certainly not that its a measure of a coach's worth if he's not in the hunt every three to five years. My point is that we are only marginally better than we were a year ago. My point is that there has been too much credit given to the fact we were in the playoffs the first weekend in December. . . We stunk up the last 25% of the season and except for coming out strong in the first quarter we did not look like we should be there in the opening round of the playoffs.
Are we awful? No. Are we getting better fast enough to make a run while we still have the present talent on hand? I don't think so. The standard we have to meet to be contenders-- turn on the tube on the 3rd of February. Man, they'll be wearing red, white, and blue and they'll be flying to Boston after the game. Explain to me what you've seen in the last five years that makes you think we're on our way there?
Love the Bucs, I just don't think we're on course. I don't think more of the same will help either.
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Posted by ( Kublai88 ) on January 22, 2008 at 6:51 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Since facts are so important let's just be analytical. . .
Not much positive since the Superbowl win. More of the same. . . not good.
Here is a team fact to chew on:
Since the end of the 2002 season:
Regular season record: 36-44
Post season record: 0-2
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Posted by ( deltadave44 ) on January 22, 2008 at 7:15 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
there's a big difference in the g-men playing the doll-fins and the bucs having to play either the chiefs, saints, or the seahawks...by the way, which one of these teams wants to give up a home game?? seattle isn't scheduled to play new orleans or k.c., so those games won't happen...the bucs are the only one of the four that has the other three on their list of '08 opponents....
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Posted by ( mkurbo ) on January 23, 2008 at 1:12 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
BREAKING NEWS - BUCS WIN SUPER BOWL !
AP / BPNN February 2, 2009
Yesterday, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers won Super Bowl XLIV by beating the San Diego Chargers 27-16. The victory capped a season where the Bucs went 11-5, won the NFC South title and had the NFL’s top rated defense. It was the Bucs fourth division title in seven years and second Super Bowl trophy. Jon Gruden now has six division titles and two Lombardi trophy’s in his still young (45) career. In a ceremony at Raymond James stadium, bay area sports talk show host Steve “Mad-Dog” Deumig on WDAE 620 (whoops – that’s “Big-Dog”) ran out onto the field yelling that “it was Gruden’s fault and it will always be Gruden fault – fire them all !”. It was not an unexpected occurrence and he was quickly restrained and taken out to a special structure that had been built for the occasion at the fifty-yard line.
As he was taken out and strapped down in the guliteen device at center field, he continued to scream “they need to bring back Rice, Sapp, Booger, Quarles and Alstott and if the Chargers hadn’t upset the Pat’s in the AFC Championship the Bucs would have lost to the Pat’s – trust me, I guarantee it ! – I’m telling you Gruden’s wrong and it’s a dirty trophy”.
At the release mechanism was former GM Rich McKay (who was out of work until offered the job) and just before letting the blade go Duemig was heard saying “Rich, I lied for you all those years, I told the fans you knew what you were doing in exchange for inside info – how can you do this to me !!!” and then the crowd cheered as the blade dropped and there was finally silence (thank god !).
Justin Pawlowski will take over the spot on WDAE 620 during the afternoons and the show will be renamed “Real Sports Talk”.
Disclaimer: The Bucs Positive News Network provides the above joke or “parody” for entertainment purposes only. It is a fictional story and no ill will is meant towards any parties named within the text. Jon Gruden did not approve this announcement.
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Posted by ( KBA ) on January 23, 2008 at 1:15 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Daisy4444 .... How old are you? If you see above, I had some valid questions to your initial points and your response was not far removed from "your rubber and I'm glue". Grow up!!!!
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Posted by ( KBA ) on January 23, 2008 at 1:17 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
kublai88 .... I would hope most of us have jobs. But I was actually appreciating your input because it wasn't emotional banter lacking any basis.
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Posted by ( MamaMagic ) on January 23, 2008 at 11:54 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
KBA: I agree with you about having a good debate without emotional banter. Brucebaudendistel & I know all about that, don't we, Brucie?
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