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Tampa's Without Walls Church For Sale
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Published: March 4, 2008
Updated: 03/04/2008 08:11 pm
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TAMPA Without Walls International Church, which faces a U.S. senator's scrutiny for possible abuse of its tax-exempt status, has put its Tampa sanctuary up for sale.
CNL Specialty Real Estate Services and Cushman & Wakefield of Florida were hired to sell the 13.3-acre campus, near International Plaza and Raymond James Stadium, in the burgeoning West Shore business district.
The asking price is $30 million, said Matthew Messier, a principal with CNL who specializes in selling church property. Along with the 4,500-seat sanctuary, the campus includes a 94,000-square-foot office building, a television studio and a small health club.
Messier referred all questions to the church.
Randy White, co-founder and head pastor of Without Walls, declined repeated requests for an interview. White's ex-wife, Paula, co-founder and board member, also did not return phone calls. She now spends most of her time in New York and San Antonio, where she formed a partnership with a ministry called The Epicenter – A Place for Life.
The possible sale surprised one board member.
"I had no clue this was on the table," said Alick Clark, a board member from Acton, Calif. "You can't make a decision like that without the board's approval. Right?"
The news comes as U.S. Sen. Chuck Grassley is intensifying his inquiry into Without Walls and the global teleminstry it spawned, Paula White Ministries.
The Iowa Republican, ranking member of the Senate's finance committee, is concerned that Without Walls, Paula White Ministries and five other multimillion-dollar ministries could be using money from their tax-exempt organizations to pay for their lavish lifestyles. The other ministries are: Benny Hinn of World Healing Center Church; Joyce Meyer of Joyce Meyer Ministries; Kenneth Copeland of Kenneth Copeland Ministries; Creflo Dollar of World Changers Church International, and Eddie L. Long of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church.
In November, Grassley gave the ministries about a month to answer an array of questions about finances, including reports of lavish spending on luxury cars, furniture and private jets.
So far, the Whites, Dollar and Long have refused to answer the questions, risking a possible subpoena.
Good Property, Soft Market
Local real estate experts consider the Without Walls property to be in one of the most promising areas for development in Tampa.
Most likely, the new buyer would tear down the buildings at 2511 N. Grady Ave. to build offices or some type of mixed-use development, Messier said.
"The real value is the land," he said. "Of course, there's always the possibility that another church would want it."
The church got a $12 million mortgage on the property in December 2003 from Evangelical Christian Credit Union. The balance is due in January, but the loan could be extended another five years, said Lisa Valenzuela, a credit union spokeswoman.
She and other credit union officials wouldn't discuss the terms or balance of Without Walls' mortgage and other loans. The credit union offers only balloon payment-type mortgages, in which a church makes relatively small regular payments and then generally pays off the bulk of the loan in a lump sum.
Without Walls reported a $26.29 million debt in a 2006 audit. About $9.2 million of that was used to buy a 10,000-seat church in Lakeland in 2005. Without Walls is also exploring the sale of that 75-acre property, according to Messier.
Without Walls shouldn't expect a quick sale of its Tampa campus, based on today's cooling commercial real estate market, said Bill Eshenbaugh, president of Eshenbaugh Land Co.
The property is next to a former MetLife Inc. administrative building being transformed into the MetWest International mixed-use development. At International Plaza, a new office building is under construction.
"It's not an instant sale at that price," Eshenbaugh said. "It's a great location, but the market is taking a breather. They are a little behind the curve."
The church property is zoned for office buildings, a parking lot and multifamily residential housing. It had been a Canada Dry distribution center.
Without Walls leaders likely would need to drop the price dramatically if they hope for a quick sale, Eshenbaugh said.
These days, large investment funds are offering about 35 percent of the asking price, he said. That means Without Walls could expect to get $10 million to $12 million if it wanted to unload the building soon.
Accountability Concerns
A member of Without Walls' board and at least one congregant were surprised to hear their church might be sold.
"I haven't heard anything about it," said Marlena Isaac, 23, who has attended Without Walls since 2003. "This is news to me."
Isaac said if the church moves, she will likely move with it.
"It has nothing to do with the building," she said of the worship experience. "For that matter, I could watch the service on the Internet.
"It's a good church. You get a good message every week."
Clark, the board member, said he is concerned that Randy White is making major decisions without seeking board approval. According to Without Walls' 1998 articles of incorporation, White must consult with the board in managing church operations.
"Whatever they're doing, they're doing on their own, apparently," Clark said.
White met with Clark in California about a month ago, Clark said. The pastor never mentioned selling the property, he said.
"I feel like there should be some accountability, but there doesn't seem to be any," he said. "It kind of makes this whole board thing rather immaterial, doesn't it?"
According to 2007 state incorporation records, the church board is composed of the Whites, Clark, Zachary Tims of New Destiny Ministries and Norva Carrington, the church's chief financial officer.
Board members Carrington and Tims did not respond to messages seeking comment.
If the building sells, White could use the money to build a new church, or to enhance the church's Lakeland facility or for ministry work, said Randy Sterns, a Tampa attorney who specializes in tax law.
But White couldn't personally profit from the sale, or give the money to church staff or board members, Sterns and other tax experts said.
Without Walls almost had a deal to sell its Lakeland church earlier this year. A real estate agent representing Without Walls asked the Family Worship Center in Lakeland if it wanted to buy the sprawling Polk campus.
Family Worship Center is looking for a larger church for its growing ministry, said business administrator Shawn Scarborough. Without Walls Central is roughly 120,000 square feet, about 30,000 square feet larger than the Family Worship Center.
The ministries negotiated, but the deal fell apart about a month ago when the two sides could not agree on terms, Scarborough said.
"We were very interested,'' he said, "but nothing happened."
For more stories, video and forums on Without Walls, go to TBO.com, Keyword: Without Walls.
The Past Year At Without Walls
May 2007: The Tampa Tribune chronicles financial troubles and broken promises by Randy and Paula White, the founders of Without Walls International Church.
Aug. 23, 2007: Randy and Paula White announce they are getting a divorce, ending a marriage of almost 18 years.
Nov. 5, 2007: U.S. Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, sends a letter to Randy and Paula White, along with five other ministries, asking detailed questions about personal finances to explore whether they violated their tax-exempt status.
March 2008: Real estate agents confirm that the Without Walls campus in Tampa is for sale.
Reporter Baird Helgeson can be reached at (813) 259-7668 or bhelgeson@tampatrib.com. Reporter Michelle Bearden can be reached be reached at (813) 259-7613 or mbearden@tampatrib.com.
Reader Comments
Posted by ( canegirl85 ) on March 4, 2008 at 5:14 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
I know this is probably wrong to say/think but....HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
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Posted by ( DarthManhandle ) on March 4, 2008 at 5:14 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Good, one less....
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Posted by ( amandatampa ) on March 4, 2008 at 5:18 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Can anyone say CORRUPT!
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Posted by ( frozenbuc ) on March 4, 2008 at 5:25 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Anybody remember the old Ray Stevens song "Would Jesus Wear A Rolex" ? It seems to fit here.
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Posted by ( mwhite6 ) on March 4, 2008 at 5:27 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
without walls. without ceilings. without floors.
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Posted by ( d2541 ) on March 4, 2008 at 5:35 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Who's going to buy a building with no walls?
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Posted by ( ToTheBeachWeGo ) on March 4, 2008 at 5:36 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
I wonder what they'll do with that money....split it among the members? They did promise prosperity to the members if they gave to the church....
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Posted by ( ProudLion ) on March 4, 2008 at 5:52 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
It is not the Church founded upon the Rock against which even the gates of hell cannot prevail.
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Posted by ( elizabeth1977 ) on March 4, 2008 at 5:52 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
I feel bad for the members. There are so many of them, where are they supposed to go now? I went there a few times when I lived closer to the area, and it was great. I really loved Randy and Paula and it is a shame they got a divorce, but now this too! So sad.
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Posted by ( apmatssim ) on March 4, 2008 at 5:57 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
A church without MORALS
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Posted by ( dragonlady76 ) on March 4, 2008 at 6:13 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Without SHAME!
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Posted by ( Teena ) on March 4, 2008 at 6:14 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
mwhite6 @LOL
without tax exemptions,without clergy, without a home
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Posted by ( JohnDeadly ) on March 4, 2008 at 6:20 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Who cares. the scam artist pastors made their millions. they'll be fine. it's the american way.
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Posted by ( Belle ) on March 4, 2008 at 6:21 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
wow, didn't see that one coming.
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Posted by ( goodtimejim ) on March 4, 2008 at 6:43 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
millions ? Wow ! They done good!! Think of the suckers who tossed in the dollars to these thief's, but then they got Blessed?
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Posted by ( savagenation ) on March 4, 2008 at 7:05 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
You guys forgot one....without Storms! Hey, you never know, maybe she'll be the big buyer.
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Posted by ( christianmom ) on March 4, 2008 at 7:15 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Please just don't mistake this cult with true Christ-followers who aren't out to strip well-intentioned individuals of their hard-earned money just so they can eat high on the hog. See 2 Timothy 3:1-5.
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Posted by ( Mia ) on March 4, 2008 at 7:17 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Who owns the building? Who gets the money? The IRS?
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Posted by ( AmericanVeteran ) on March 4, 2008 at 7:27 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
How about doing something good with the place, ... like donating it to the Veterans of Hillsborough County?
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Posted by ( MaryPerez ) on March 4, 2008 at 7:47 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
George Carlin said it best. When it comes to BS, big-time, major league BS, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. Religion. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good BS story.
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Posted by ( MaryPerez ) on March 4, 2008 at 7:52 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
George Carlin said it best. When it comes to crazy stuff, big-time, major league crazy stuff, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. Religion easily has the greatest crazy story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you. And He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good story. Yikes!
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Posted by ( acuratl96 ) on March 4, 2008 at 8 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
What is done in the dark will come to light, they are living like kings, while some of their members cannot pay their bills, goodbye, 1 less cult, to take advantage of hard working people.
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Posted by ( taipan ) on March 4, 2008 at 8:32 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Did you read the whole article? The senate is investigating a myriad of churches and pastors, including one "Creflo Dollar"......what's up with black preachers? At least use a name that doesn't attract attention, like pastor Kenneth Copeland, Randy White, or Jim Bakker. I mean...just hearing "Creflo Dollar" and Bishop "Eddie Long" reminds me of two guys betting on a game of dice in some back alley.
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Posted by ( sonofabench ) on March 4, 2008 at 8:48 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Well,well, well! This speaks directly to the low self image that is rampant in the black communities. You all allowed these Aryan pimps to come in and make a severe dent in the culture of the oldest most respected black community in Tampa(West Tampa).Since they showed up like Chris Columbus and the "Good ole boys"...the member roles in the churches in and around the west Hillsborough and south Tampa area have declined..yet the communities are still drug and crime filled. You all had churches in your communities..yet you wanted the "Great white hope"...you wanted to drink the kool-aide...and you all did. The majority of the church was undenialbly black yet represented a thimble full of the leadership. Yet whites do not mount up and fill the seats of negroe churches...why is that? Maybe they do no suffer from the same institutionalized self hate that has developed since before 1619. Black man, black man...check your self esteem. take down the picture of the blue eyed blonde haired picture of god from the wall of your hearts!
peace out!!!!!!!
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Posted by ( DarthMandingo ) on March 4, 2008 at 9:32 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
To say that I'm disappointed and confused would be an understatement...Went to both 9a and 6p service Sunday, no mention of sale....I was having a good night 'til I read this....
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Posted by ( USFBull ) on March 4, 2008 at 10:07 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Mary Perez,
What a sad life you must lead. I have never heard, nor read anything so cynical and misguided. Your unfounded statements concerning Almighty God and The Ten Commandments made absolutely no sense. I suggest you keep reading, and John 3:16 would be a great place to start.
ChristianMom,
Excellent point.
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Posted by ( yborbarfly ) on March 4, 2008 at 10:07 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
I attended a service once with a friend and after it was over, I overheard someone ask the pastor for help. The pastor told her that she would have to be a member in good standing (giving donations) for at least a year before the church could help her. Sounded more like a business than anything else, but then again what is "Big" religion these days.
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Posted by ( amiles_az ) on March 4, 2008 at 10:44 p.m.
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Posted by ( swissmiss ) on March 4, 2008 at 10:46 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
yborbarfly- I have gone to these "big" churches and ran into the same problems..they want your money!! That is ashame what they said to that citizen needing help! I also attend a church just for pastoral counseling and was running into money probs, and asked if they could lessen the price for the next few weeks..I was told I could pay later, but wouldn't be "fair" to others...what is fair about churches anymore? If I want to hear the word of God, I get it straight from the source, the BIBLE! I bet Joel Osteen w/his big church we will hear about it due time!
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Posted by ( barney1978 ) on March 4, 2008 at 11:01 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Great now that they are maybe we can begin to investigate the corrupt Catholic Church that uses its fund to aid and abett pedophiles.
As You Judge so shall ye be judged
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Posted by ( thatguyfl82 ) on March 4, 2008 at 11:34 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Mary Perez! That was the first thing I thought of was George Carlin!! he couldn't have been more dead on!! Good Call!!
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Posted by ( wakeuppeople ) on March 4, 2008 at 11:40 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Is anyone actually surprised? How dumb
can you get and still breath. Oh I guess
it's the devil attacking Randy and Paula. Hey I have an idea. Why don't we all go to the Paula White event. What's it called Life by Deception or is it Life by Destruction wait I think it's Life by Disaster. Go figure you are going to tell the world how to live the best kind of life, when your's is completely upside down.Notice the speakers same old group. Jakes, Jones, Darlene. Hey lets jump up and down for 1 hour then beg for money for 2 hours. Sounds like fun to me. Who's your daddy now. Why is everyone so afraid to stand up to Mr. Plastic man. Nice surgery on Randy's face. Lets take up an offering so we can fix him. I will give the first
$1000.00.
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Posted by ( snoopyandwoodstock ) on March 4, 2008 at 11:40 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
After reading your comments I see why newspapers are written on eighth grade reading comprehension levels. First of all, they said they were selling the property not dismantling the church. Let me break it down further. They're just moving to another location.Despite what people may think about that church or the Whites, they have done a lot in the community. You can ask Metropolitan Ministries. Hey Michelle, why don't you do a story about the things that they do in the community. The Trib always writes about the negative. In my line of work for the city,I have had an opportunity to see firsthand the things that they are doing for the community. For those of you that wrote negative comments,did you know that that church gives school supplies to needy children every year, feed thousands at Thanksgiving, gives toys to thousands at Christmas and goes into the inner city every week (just to name a few thing)? Of course you don't because those stories never get written. Those types of stories don't sell enough papers. BTW the Scientologists are already in Tampa and have been for awhile. They're on Habana Ave. just north of Columbus Drive. Again proof that you people don't have a clue what's going on in our city.
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Posted by ( RobKay ) on March 4, 2008 at 11:41 p.m.
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
Posted by ( wakeuppeople ) on March 5, 2008 at 12:09 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Hey snoopy and dumb a** use your brain.
Randy and Paula always gave with a motive. As long as the camera was rolling they would give. Try giving without the whole world knowing about it.Hey another great idea. Now that WWIC
and PWM are in a world of crap. Let's post our ridiculous financials about how much we gave. What a joke. More money went to tv and jet time than any other ministry. Oh yea not to mention their 7 digit salaries from the church that they continue to hide. Paula sit down and shut up. You are a talking bobble head that loves to hear itself speak. Take your own advice and change your thinking. You both get Biggest Bull Crap award. Refund all the money you have stolen from people who really love God. Try honesty for once in your Life. Fastest growing church my butt. 17000 members. A sanctuary that seats 2800 on a good day. How many services would that take to accomadate that many people. As for your theology what a joke.Try reading the Bible sometime you might actually come up with something to say. Randy has about 10 messages that he can preach. The rest of the time he talks about who he knows, where he's been, who he's been with. Mr Ybor Party Man. Can't keep his hands off the women. You Thought it was over ... its just beginning. "Bigg Daddy"
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Posted by ( StPetePilot ) on March 5, 2008 at 12:24 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
These are the morons who think the universe is 6000 years old, and want to ban Evolution being taught in schools. Fools!
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Posted by ( danport3011 ) on March 5, 2008 at 12:40 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
It’s a shame
Can anyone say?
"Greedy is, what greedy does"
Now it’s called "without nothing!!!"
Plain simple greed for money that’s all it was.
No need to bring in the evolution theory!!!, even Darwin denounced it on his death bed, read his bio.
" wake up dude" stick to the story.
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Posted by ( danport3011 ) on March 5, 2008 at 12:42 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
It’s a shame
Can anyone say?
"Greedy is, what greedy does"
Now it’s called "without nothing!!!"
Plain simple greed for money that’s all it was.
No need to knock on evolution theory!!!, even Darwin denounced it on his death bed
" wake up dude" stick to the story.
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Posted by ( DarthMandingo ) on March 5, 2008 at 6:40 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Good Morning...I've had time to think and pray and snoopyandwoodstock are correct...nowhere does it say the church is closing, just selling its property....This can only mean that our church is moving to a LARGER and better campus, which we need...Still don't care for being left in the dark about the sale, but GOD is moving us (the members of WWIC) on to bigger and better things!!!!
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Posted by ( wakeuppeople ) on March 5, 2008 at 7:09 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
It's no use. Some people are just pain freaks. Why would you need a bigger and better building, you can barely fill the one you are currently in. Everyone is gone except for the morones who think
the Devil is attacking. Randy needs the money. The income at the church is down, the attendence is down. What staff does he have left, other than wanna be brainless individuals. If you are dumb enough to continue in a place God left along time ago, you deserve to get taken.
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Posted by ( Harley2008 ) on March 5, 2008 at 7:28 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
DarthMandingo, your church is moving to Malibu, California!!!!!! Just wait and see. Randy White has been deceptive to his congregation for a long time, what makes you think he would change now? Going to be a long commute for you people who are foolish enough to stay at Without Walls. Members, wisen up and see the light, before all of YOUR money is gone, as the White's have done to so many others. Only you, the members can stop this madness. Do it now, and don't give these pulpit pimps one more penny. God is angry, really, really angry.
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Posted by ( lumi_nara ) on March 5, 2008 at 7:35 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
All I can say is, the Lord Giveth and the Lord Taketh away, especially when this church is CLEARLY not following HIS plan.
This church and many others like it are the sole reason I don't go to church, or tithe when I did go. I am still a Christian, but I build my faith by praying and reading the bible with my husband... I do not need some pastor sitting in his comfy chair on a stage lit by who knows how many lights and television cameras talking to me about propaganda, especially political propaganda which some like to do.
Some churches of today are no better than the Pharisees of old, in fact, some are even worse.
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Posted by ( Yankee ) on March 5, 2008 at 8:18 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Why does this not surprise me? Don't be surprised if you hear more dirt from these "pastors." Lord have mercy on their soul. I feel for the congregation. I'm sure there are a "few" who are faithful to God and unfortunately had to be succumed to this garbage.
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Posted by ( dasnthird ) on March 5, 2008 at 8:48 a.m.
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
Posted by ( dasnthird ) on March 5, 2008 at 8:50 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
the Scoffers smear from a distance, and God glorifies in the light! He will prepare a table before us in the presence of our enemies! -BC
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Posted by ( rckmajs ) on March 5, 2008 at 9:05 a.m.
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
Posted by ( Yankee ) on March 5, 2008 at 9:19 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
rckmajs: I love your posting. I agree with you 100%
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Posted by ( adavis ) on March 5, 2008 at 9:26 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
The Rev. Henry Lyons is out of prison by now, right? Having left the confinement of a 6x9 cell I'm sure he's eager to get settled into a multi-million dollar mansion paid for with the donations of faithful minions. Maybe his loyal Baptists will buy the church building and let him preach in the pulpit. It will be a real money-maker again.
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Posted by ( lolalove222 ) on March 5, 2008 at 9:33 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
"where ever there is one gathered in my name, I shall be there." <-- why I don't go to church. (The bible says I don't have to.)
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Posted by ( larrycano83 ) on March 5, 2008 at 9:46 a.m.
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Posted by ( ALLENALBY ) on March 5, 2008 at 9:47 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
It's all about the money, "SHOW ME THE MONEY", They probably need the money for attorney fees or they just want to cash out now that their best hand has been revealed. They were always out for the money and didn't care who they hurt along the way. Sounds like the original PTL Club. Praise The Lord. If they only knew half of what they preached
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Posted by ( dasnthird ) on March 5, 2008 at 9:57 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Those who 'kill' do by the letter of the law. Those who give 'life' do by the spirit of the law b/c that's what it is meant to do. The law kills, the spirit gives life. Any ridicule even when someone is guilty, 'killeth' as the bible says. Believers and non believers should cover their brother of humanity always and give life. God bless their broad tongues.
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Posted by ( TylerOrr ) on March 5, 2008 at 9:59 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
maybe the congregation can go hang out with the dudes from the river!!! j/k, but has anybody else heard of this place? they hold conferences twice a year or so and pull in people from all around the world, and they all stay at my hotel... i thought the in-town river people were brainwashed, but the out of towners are WORSE!!! they come from as far as Sweden, France, and New Zealand!! some of them are really nice, just really brainwashed, and i feel kinda bad for them. the river is traveling around the world HARVESTING SOULS!!!! their words... check out the RMI website... really creepy, the only thing creepier is how they ask you if you want a meat pie after asking you to donate your soul to the harvest!!! oh and as if your soul isn't enough... they ask you to fund the harvest with really steep contributions!!! but they make it worth it, for $50 a week, you get a VHS of last years sermon!!!
just sayin!!
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Posted by ( tampaguy69 ) on March 5, 2008 at 10:04 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
How naiive of any board member to be surprised. Doesn't he get it that the Whites have treated this "church" as their own personal fiefdom and piggy bank from the start all the while fleecing their flock of "pidgeons" in order to maintain their extravagant lifestyle? SUCKERS!!! Like they say...religeon is a crutch for weak minded people. Thankfully for the Whites those people have stronger wallets than minds.
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Posted by ( alvi ) on March 5, 2008 at 10:05 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
And it should be of no importance that these cryptic "pastors" are all converts from a long Jewish lineage. Are there even any blood Christians left?
To call them Pharisees is dead on!
Talmudism (phariseeism) is infecting every layer of our society. Those of you who have forgotten what Christianity is all about; it means being "Christlike," "to imitate Jesus," if you will. That means giving of yourself.
Not-Take, take, take all the time.
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Posted by ( mailman ) on March 5, 2008 at 10:12 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
From my past experience, it seems that ALL leaders of larger churchs live a life style their parishioners could only dream of. "We" drive domestic vehicles costing under $30,000.00, "they" drive foreign vehicles costing in excess of $50,000.00 or something domestic like a loaded Fleetwood, etc. They wear all the best clothes, watches and accessories. Could someone please explain to me how this makes sense and how you can justify giving the "church" your hard earned dollars when this is right in front of your eyes? One word,SHEEPLE!
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Posted by ( yousaidwhat ) on March 5, 2008 at 10:20 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Whatever is going on now in that church, I don't understand.. But I don't think it started that way. I think their heart was right at one point, but through the years of the fame and the glamour, something changed. I don't believe that this was ever the intention from the beginning. I am still heartbroken about the divorce and have so many questions about it. I really wish they would've said.. okay.. this is getting out of hand and they would step down before getting a divorce. Then God would have restored their marriage and things could have worked out if they got back on the track they originally set out for. I know you all have so many bad comments and I can understand some of them.. but some of you are just spewing out poison and some of you are calling yourself Christians. After you say whatever it is that you say, please say a prayer for restoration for all the hearts involved in this whole mess.
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Posted by ( larrycano83 ) on March 5, 2008 at 10:23 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
I just had to leave another comment, I keep reading these stupid comments about the pastor out to get the money, ignorance will be your downfall, don't you know the church doesn't pay MY Pastor's bills, he has 23 streams of income, different business that he's worked hard for, you are the outsiders who know nothing but judge everything, foolish! What! You think just because you go get your education, you have a right to start making dollars, if you didn't earn it, shut your mouth, and yes I said MY PASTOR because thats what he is! And he's earned that title through a hard life!
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Posted by ( Randall_Lind ) on March 5, 2008 at 10:23 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
These mega-churches twist the truth of God and cause more damage in people. Then it left to the local churches to pick up the pieces.
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Posted by ( rckmajs ) on March 5, 2008 at 10:24 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Letter or spirit, the Bible is pretty clear as to the requirements to hold the position of "bishop". His church and board members have a responsibility to hold his "position" accountable to the letter AND the spirit. "He" has the right to ask for and receive forgiveness. When a man cannot or does not live up to the expectations of his job description, he is generally fired. That does not mean that you have to hate him or the company he works for, only that, for the health and well being of the company, he cannot hold that position any longer. If there is criminal activity involved, let the "courts" judge him accordingly. The "church" gets judged when they choose to ignore the problem rather than eliminate it. For examples, see above. W/W members, you have work to do.
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Posted by ( donttazemebro ) on March 5, 2008 at 10:28 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
The church called without Walls is really without GOD. Randy has been caught and now, wants to cash in and flee. Paula found a more stable group to get more money with, soon she will flee. Paula and Randy are the true false profits the Bible talks about.. They are doing the devils work I know some of you do not believe in GOD, I am sorry for you. But you will in the end find out who was right and who was wrong Try GOD. But remember people like the whites and the other false profits the senator is going after, do not listen to them !!!
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Posted by ( Dave ) on March 5, 2008 at 10:45 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Time to CASH OUT AND RUN!
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Posted by ( dasnthird ) on March 5, 2008 at 11:16 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Every man will be judged for his actions. It's the law of nature. But God will execute the judgement . And when He does, He still does not remove headship that is judged but when He chooses to. David remained King all the days of his life b/c it is only the Lord who sets up kingdoms and tears them down. It is not done by a board nor is it done by media. God has set His name on that congregation and favored it. Stand still and see the salvation of the Lord! Blessed be the name of the Lord.
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Posted by ( dogworld ) on March 5, 2008 at 11:40 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
I love it when we critics are referred to some Bible verse as an answer as if we would waste time reading the Bible. Look at the fruit of the tree. everywhere we see money grubbing ministers sucking in the big bucks from the little believers and laughing all the way to the bank. This is the fruit that the religious tree yields. Read all the pretty verses and pretend your God will judge them sometime in the next world. I would hardly trust any god that allows these people to represent him on earth. How do you know this isn't what he really wants? These ministers speak for him don't they?
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Posted by ( larrycano83 ) on March 5, 2008 at 11:46 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Again Pastor Randy would not even being profiting off of this sale, idiots, didn't you guys actually reed the article, it says it clearly, he or his staff will not profit off the sale, IDIOTS!!!
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Posted by ( bucsfango40 ) on March 5, 2008 at 11:52 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
This "church" supports homosexuality so of course it's bound to be destroyed. This "church" is nothing more than a cult. Their choir was full of gays, they only picked these gay people for their talent search a couple years ago. Very nasty dealings. They give Christianity a very bad name.
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Posted by ( larrycano83 ) on March 5, 2008 at 11:57 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
This church doesn't accept homosexuality, it just doesn't judge it, like you are doing bucsfango40, I've been in attendance at wwic for over 10 years now, and its def. not a cult, you give humanity a bad name!
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Posted by ( rckmajs ) on March 5, 2008 at 12:09 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
dasnthird...Do you not see the damage done to the people posting around you by "headship" just like the Whites? Read closer the responsibilities and qualifications required by God of a "bishop, leaders and deacons". Because a man once had the heart and qualifications to start and lead a church does not always make him qualified to continue forever. Yes, God does set up kingdoms and also tears them down but he saddles the leaders of those kingdoms with the responsibilities of stewardship and the members of those kingdoms with the repsonsibilities of discernment. To sit and watch your "bishop" destroy the reputation of your church and the church in general while you choose to bury your head in the sand is in large part why your fellow posters are viewing the church as they do. They call you hypocritical for claiming to be one thing and allowing your leaders to be something else. Read on in your Bible and you will find that you carry more responsibility than you might like to think. You do not have the luxury of complacency.
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Posted by ( larrycano83 ) on March 5, 2008 at 12:33 p.m.
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Posted by ( larrycano83 ) on March 5, 2008 at 12:37 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
oops i meant ear!!!
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Posted by ( RandysWorstNightmare ) on March 5, 2008 at 1:11 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Hey Bishop BS and Life Coach Paula, I'm back. (I'm actully right around the corner)
So, in the name of prosperity and the prosperity doctrine, are you going to divide the net proceeds from the church sale among those who tithed to build you your little kingdom?
Or will you buy another jet?
Or another Bentley?
Or another BIMBO?
Maybe get another Doctorate degree (Tuition is expensive - not that you would know)
House in California?
You should have paid your bills Randy.
BTW - I'm still not gay!
Call me if you have the guts. I'm still waiting!
The cockroach in comfortable shoes that won't go away.
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Posted by ( RandysWorstNightmare ) on March 5, 2008 at 2:15 p.m.
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Posted by ( larrycano83 ) on March 5, 2008 at 2:17 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
JUST STOP HATIN JOCKIGAL, your perception is horrible, its a shame you feel the need to tear down a person thats probably helped your family or someone you know, ? though when did you become God! hmmm
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Posted by ( larrycano83 ) on March 5, 2008 at 2:23 p.m.
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Posted by ( lornoborno ) on March 5, 2008 at 2:34 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
A mega church that has run out of money and has left it's fanatic flock to eat it.
- Ah, there is a God after all.
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Posted by ( lornoborno ) on March 5, 2008 at 2:51 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
“I'm like peter i'll cut your eye off no questions asked!!!!!!!” … “oops i meant ear!!!”
“Jesus, knew the crap of his disciples”
I have to say that these comments are disturbingly hilarious.
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Posted by ( RandysWorstNightmare ) on March 5, 2008 at 3:16 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
WOW Randy!!!
A couple of cocktails in the afternoon and you become one angry hombre! Lay off the Bloody Marys.
First off, whether anyone was talking to me or not – I’m talking to you little man. Your days of picking on the poor, lying and cheating are over. You are damaged goods.
As for your comment, “…I'm not the one to start stuff with buddy! Really!...” bring it on. I’ve already spanked you once – I’ll do it again. I took your money once, I'd love a shot at taking what little money you've got left. You think you can’t pay your bills now, try me again Randy. You will be without walls!
As for your question, “…if it's so easy to run a church then where's yours!...” I don’t have a church – I run an honorable, above board business. I don’t lie to people about “sowing seeds”.
I don’t lie to the poor about some “prosperity” garbage when the only one who prospers is the head pastor.
I don’t lie about giving away “Home(s) For the Holidays” and then never give away the home.
I don’t lie about giving away “BRAND NEW CARS” only to have the car be a 4 year old beat up ride.
Because I run an honorable business, I don’t have to sleep with an AK-47.
Because I run an honorable business, I don’t have Senators over looking my finances.
Because I run an honorable business, I’m not on the front page of the newspaper.
Can’t pay your bills Randy? Maybe Dr. Lowry will give you back some of your money you paid him to have your name put on the building that houses the “Randy White School of Mentoring”.
I love your “I’m not someone to start something with” comment. What are you going to do? Really, little man, what are you going to do? Divorce your wife? Start another truck driving school? Get another degree in Air Conditioning repair? Write another autobiography?
Have a couple more drinks Randy. When you sober up, you’ll still be the same stupid, uneducated, soon to be broke, pathetic little man you’ve always been.
Go sell some vitamins.
The cockroach in comfortable shoes that won’t go away.
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Posted by ( TampaSlim ) on March 5, 2008 at 3:23 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
P.T. Barnum lives again!
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Posted by ( 91stormvet ) on March 5, 2008 at 3:26 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Without Ethics
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Posted by ( zarkmud ) on March 5, 2008 at 3:50 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
I wish my flock had some money for me. [the bums].
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Posted by ( Daisy26 ) on March 5, 2008 at 4:17 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
This is so, so sad. I believe in an Almighty Creator and that humans are just that - human and prone to mistakes and failure. I just find it very disappointing when such public people, that are looked up to, mess up so badly. As one Christian to another - may we all walk the integrity that we talk!! God help us!
Daisy
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Posted by ( chuckhill ) on March 5, 2008 at 4:32 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
The Evangelical Christian Credit Union??
You couldn't make up better s#&t than this.
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Posted by ( wakeuppeople ) on March 5, 2008 at 4:52 p.m.
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Posted by ( Trish ) on March 5, 2008 at 5 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
The problem is, they failed to follow a basic 12-step philosophy:
"Never put personalities above principles."
Who is Randy White? Who is Paula White? They are "nobody to trust", if you ask me. Because:
(1) Their principles are rotten. Choosing money and fame over love is destructive, rather than constructive.
(2) They cause financial and spiritual harm to others through their never-fulfilled ego-quests.
(3) Their flock has been depersonalized, and these are the "precious ones" God has given to them.
(4) They can never answer properly to public inquiry. I'm no scholar, but I know The Bible says that whatever occurs in darkness will be brought into the light. You can't hide forever!
Hopefully, Randy moves to Hollywood and Paula stays in Texas -- and their egos cause their self-destruction.
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Posted by ( wakeuppeople ) on March 5, 2008 at 5:10 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Oh yeah did i forget to mention tapping phones. Where the hell do you come up with 23 streams of income. Randy can't prove 4 real streams of income. I will give you 2 real one's 1.WWIC and 2.Paula
White or is it Hawkins now who knows she gets around. RAW why dont you both get to some RAW truth. Your whole ministry was based on a lie that started
in Maryland. What happened to all the kingdom builder money that you promised to sell your house and help get rid of debt. You didnt even participate in what you were promoting. How about a the money you lost on Days Inn and what about the money you lost on bad plane deals and what about the money you lost to Terry Koontz. Who accounted for all the millions that have been lost and your own board and congregation didnt even know about it. What about the offerings taken up for the PWM tv studio.
She still rents cameras. You guys misappropriate all the time. Your Malibu adventure. What a hoax you didnt go there to start a church you went there to party with under age minors (great example you are) your condo and expenses were all church money. It all comes out in the wash. Go ahead make my day. Threaten me bribe me gag me step on my toes. Your name is mud in this community nobody cares about you little
man. You tlak so tuff behind the pulpit
try talking that way on the street. Naaa
you wouldnt unless you had one of your many guns in hand. Your such a measly little weasel. I hope I run into at one of the boxing matches I would love to shake your hand. Or maybe will bump into each other running down bayshore. Take a good look at the view, because your view is about to change. I hear the food in federal prison is pretty good.
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Posted by ( rckmajs ) on March 5, 2008 at 6:20 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
larrycano83...You make a great witness (for non-Christians) If your posts are any example of what you've learned under your "bishop", I would suggest you find another "pastor" to sit under that can teach you some Christian values and how to apply them to someone who doesn't agree with you. Your mission as a Christian through The Great Commission is to win non-believers to Christ. I don't get the idea that you're making any friends here. Maybe you should try a different approach. Just an offhanded observation from one Christian to another.
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Posted by ( twhite5 ) on March 5, 2008 at 6:29 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Its just a building its not the church or the message behind it. I've attende wwic since feb '05. Things have changed a bit but I'm still faithful to my pastor. He's human he's allowed to make mistakes no one said he had to be perfect (as far as his lifestyle, divorce) If he moves the church to a new building I'll still be an attendance. God has done some amazing things in my life. So what pastor randy has a nice house and a nice car. For all you cynics out there. I challenge to go to wwic for a month. You'll see what the church does with the moeny we give and you'll see the lives they touch and save because pastor randy give more than he ever spends. He feeds and clothes the homeless 365 days a year not just on holidays like most of the struggling churches who still claim to be doing something for the community. It takes money to change the world. You can't feed people or provide back to school materials or function in this world without money. Just because its a church does not mean that it doesn't need money to survive! I don't care if the church is being investigated for other funds, I've witnessed first hand what pastor randy and pastor paula does for the community and until pne of yo can show me a small church (that barely has the money to stay open) that can do the same I don't think any of you should comment. People always want to comment and cut down what they dpon't understand or what they don't experience first hand. God isn't in the building, he's in our hearts and the spirit of what Without Walls stands for.
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Posted by ( dogworld ) on March 5, 2008 at 7:21 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Yeah, yeah, twhite5. You have as much credibility as your pastor. You judge the tree by its fruit, and there's even a parable about that. Your own religion says that you are only as good as your actions. You can't divide on a so-called man of God saying he doesn't have to be a model of virtue. If he isn't then your whole religion is a lie.
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Posted by ( jc576 ) on March 5, 2008 at 7:53 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
RandysWorstNightmare! I have been wondering were you have been on these boards! I have been reading larrycano83 posts and thinking the same thing..."Hello Randy". larrycano83, you say that you are not "one of these so called weak Christians"; no, you actually sound like a very strong, angry, judgmental Christian to me.
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Posted by ( twhite5 ) on March 5, 2008 at 8:05 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
dogworld: I don't just the tree or anyone by there fruit. Before you comment on me make sure you understand what it is that you just say. All I'm saying is that people who don't go to the church are so quick to judge what they know nothing about. Yea the media is always going to have a negative spend because that's what sells papers and thats what gets the internet sites looked apond. the church has change not necessarily for the good since the pastor started getting all the press when they went online in '06. But the overall message is still the same. Cloth the naked and feed the poor. Don't criticizer them for doing what so many people only talk about. I've personally done a lot of community service within the church and I see the difference it makes on other people lives' I'm only 22 and I see the world of difference God has made on my life. I don't forget that its God that brought me through those doors and its God that keeps me supporting MY PASTORS.
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Posted by ( liamrite ) on March 5, 2008 at 8:25 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
I went once and immediately sensed CORRUPTION! They asked for everyone to give more than they thought they could, even if it meant getting a HELOC. Nice! Go in debt so we get out of debt. (or spend your $ and accumulate more debt) The congregation seemed brainwashed, very strange that so many fell for the scammers for so long! LOCK EM UP!
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Posted by ( liamrite ) on March 5, 2008 at 8:29 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Can you say PTL?
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Posted by ( dogworld ) on March 5, 2008 at 8:46 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Maybe, twhite, God sent me to save you from your pastors. When the truth is given to you, and you continue supporting the fleecers, then don't blame anyone else later because you were a willing victim.
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Posted by ( reefraider ) on March 5, 2008 at 9:30 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
.....my GOD is to big to be put in a box-he is in the air I breath, the earth i live on,the water I play in and the fire that warms me....please stop the drama... or drink the Kool-Aid.
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Posted by ( elizabeth1977 ) on March 5, 2008 at 11:38 p.m.
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Posted by ( belle01 ) on March 5, 2008 at 11:53 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Okay things are not "perfect" there. Maybe the people who are leaving nasty comments are all leading exceptional lives. i know that Randy & Paula are esponsible for their actions and thay have to answer to God, not us. All we SHOULD do is sincerely pray for them. They have not fallen, this is a storm...you guys know what it's like to go through rough times, right? I mean, for goodness sake, his daughter is ill with cancer...the man is going through. with all the problems that exist in that church, there is not ONE church here in Tampa that is more transparent than WWIC. While the negative commentators are kicking him while he's down...keep in mind the things you've gone through in your lives'...whether it was your fault or someone else's...how did you feel? Seriously, there is no need to be cruel about the matter.
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Posted by ( RadioHitz ) on March 6, 2008 at 12:02 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
You guys should see the Gulfstream that these guys fly around in. I wonder if Randy or Paula have ever offered to take the owners (WWIC members) of the jet for a ride.
Maybe you, too, could have your very own traveling makeup artist at your side 24 hours a day!
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Posted by ( rippedoff ) on March 6, 2008 at 1:11 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Randy how do you like me now? Your attorneys still trying to ban me? Hey the rottweiler is back. Figure that hint out! Of course you would need to read the forums
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Posted by ( rippedoff ) on March 6, 2008 at 1:17 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Randy,
Guess what? CHECK MATE! You banned my rippedoff id from the forums for the 150 documents I posted. I have been working hard behind the scenes. Go read the forums and you will see in Nov. 2007 I posted you listed the buildings. It took four months for it to get reported. You are four months behind knowing what I know. I know where you buried the bodies and who dug the holes to hide them in. (PERSAY)
Hey lil man I have more for you to sort out. Now I have the Senate and the big dogs coming down your trail. Sleep well! I bet you wished you never sheared me! You are going to be herding goats in Angolia when I am done shinning light. Do you think your divorce decree is safe? I bet the bounty on me is higher now, huh? Always remember my team is all around you 24/7
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Posted by ( lumi_nara ) on March 6, 2008 at 7:55 a.m.
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Posted by ( dogworld ) on March 6, 2008 at 9:32 a.m.
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Posted by ( Shauna ) on March 6, 2008 at 10:02 a.m. ( Suggest removal )
Anything happen about the dodgy real estate dealings at St.James United Methodist? You remember - the church with the porno-pastor. IRS? Anyone?
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Posted by ( hautness ) on March 7, 2008 at 7:09 p.m. ( Suggest removal )
Okay, Let me back this truck up right now. God is not untrue or false because a church falls or is fake or without walls. Does this make sense?George Carlin only stated the OBVIOUS, how many louis vuitton bags did you see last yr, errh body and they mother had one, were they all Real?? Just because you spot fake does that mean there is NO real Louis Vuitton bag, people you can't prove God is a FABLE, so you may can see the OBVIOUS fake "nikes" or purse analogy but be certain to know were there is fake,it is based off something that is TRUTH. Do u know truth or think you know truth because you can identify fake, which is not always easy to see, sometimes swayed by perception? Truth never changes, will always be, even if it can't be spoken, the truth is still the Truth. God is the Truth, every man is a Liar. Everybody can't Handle the Truth, so just because you reject one lie doesn't mean you haven't bought another...
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Posted by ( wilart3 ) on March 16, 2008 at 5:07 a.m.
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